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[2020-06-19 20:12:25] - "Linger for a moment on this: A white mayor dismissing the black resident's explanation charging ahead with an emotionally fraught investigation against him that could result in enhanced penalties."
[2020-06-19 19:54:52] - speaking of which, this may be a new contender for peak woke cult cringe. - mig
[2020-06-19 19:54:01] - or chasing phantom hate crimes. - mig
[2020-06-19 19:48:05] - paul: or going on cancel crusades with the help of media outlets. - mig
[2020-06-19 17:19:04] - a: I hope you're right, but I just worry everybody's going to donate to the NAACP and read "White Fragility" and have cookouts on Juneteenth and then think the problem is solved.-Paul
[2020-06-19 17:18:12] - a: I guess we'll see. All the accomplishments in the aftermath seem to be about tearing down statues and making Juneteenth a holiday and the NFL hiring Kaepernick and confederate flags being taken down. Has there been any significant police reform? I haven't heard of any that has passed yet. -Paul
[2020-06-19 17:16:01] - it's weird, I had never heard people on the radio talking about qualified immunity, now they talk about it all the time (at least once a week on npr). I'm not sure i agree with you. ~a
[2020-06-19 16:50:58] - https://twitter.com/joshrobin/status/1273744246747643904 Just following through with the point I made earlier about how I worry that the framing of George Floyd's death as a racism issue is going to distract from police reform. Politicians are wasting time focusing on removing statues of Thomas Jefferson vs debating things like qualified immunity. -Paul
[2020-06-18 20:16:28] - title: I like that song. Found it in Metronomicon: Slay the Dance Floor That's a fun game. -- Xpovos
[2020-06-18 19:41:57] - There's a lot of questions here, but it's hard not to think that this was an overreaction. Even in the worst case scenario, why not declare bankruptcy? Robinhood almost certainly would've lost out bigger than he would've on this. If you are ever going to declare bankruptcy, 20 is the time... So young. -Paul
[2020-06-18 19:08:06] - Xpovos: Thats sad. /r/wallstreetbets is entertaining for me sometimes but I wonder if there are more cases like that that don't make the news.
-Daniel[2020-06-18 18:59:13] - Xpovos: I thought the brave world would be newwwer. - Title
[2020-06-18 18:57:43] - title: are you a reference to YACHT? -- Xpovos
[2020-06-18 18:57:07] - Yeah, there are a ton of unanswered questions. It's not great. -- Xpovos
[2020-06-18 18:45:07] - "How was a 20 year old with no income able to get assigned almost a million dollars worth of leverage?" it's a good question. even people with a gambling addiction aren't allowed to get 1m loans, esp if they have no income. how did this adult get a 1m loan to feed his (alternative) gambling addiction? not sure why he didn't just declare bankruptcy. isn't this why we have bankruptcy? for idiots who lend 1m to idiots like this? ~a
[2020-06-18 18:41:43] - Not so super investor. https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/06/17/20-year-old-robinhood-customer-commits-suicide-after-seeing-a-730000-negative-balance/ -- Xpovos
[2020-06-17 18:36:22] - a: Freedom Portfolio beating the S&P by 60 percentage points as of today.
-Paul[2020-06-17 18:18:00] - i vote super investor essen. ~a
[2020-06-17 18:17:52] - Maybe I am just assuming he didn't hate the name "Uncle Ben", which might be wrong. -Paul
[2020-06-17 18:17:38] - Daniel: But, isn't that kinda rude? Or potentially kind of rude? I guess I don't know what he would want to be called, but if somebody decided that "Paul" was racist and decided to call me "Super Investor Essen", I guess I would be a little flattered, but also like, "Can't you just call me by what others call me?" -Paul
[2020-06-17 18:07:05] - i vote ben the super farmer. ~a
[2020-06-17 18:05:08] - Farmer Ben? Ricer Ben? Ben the Super Farmer? I don't know. /shrug -Daniel
[2020-06-17 18:04:39] - Mr Ben? Thats pretty much the point that though you and I can't say with certainty that generally speaking thats where names like "Uncle Ben" came from. -Daniel
[2020-06-17 17:58:46] - Daniel: Like, I get that maybe it was racist how he got his name... but then how are we allowed to refer to him? -Paul
[2020-06-17 17:57:57] - Daniel: Yup, the explanation behind "uncle" makes sense, but they also say, "According to the Uncle Ben's website, the name was first used in 1946 in reference to a black farmer known as Uncle Ben who excelled in rice-growing." If he was known as Uncle Ben... does that make his name inherently racist, then? -Paul
[2020-06-17 17:57:14] - mig: Yeah, I can see the imagery behind Aunt Jemima seeming a little more problematic, but the Uncle Ben picture seems pretty benign. -Paul
[2020-06-17 17:56:12] - a: Is carbon credits a thing? I thought that law hadn't passed? -Paul
[2020-06-17 17:55:06] - Paul: The article says why the Uncle part is part of what makes it have the slave vibe. They could try to update that somehow and still use a different image of Mr Ben since he was a real rice farmer? Dunno. -Daniel
[2020-06-17 17:50:13] - paul: the aunt jemima image does kind of evoke a slavery era vibe. - mig
[2020-06-17 17:34:18] - at my company, 70% of the company travels to work by foot / bike / public transport exclusively. 30% of the company travels by car (and ALL use/have-used public transport and/or motorcycle and/or bicycle on occasion). where to i spend our millions in carbon credits? ~a
[2020-06-17 17:20:50] - https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/business/uncle-bens-rice-racist/index.html So if the farmer was known as "Uncle Ben", is it now racist to even refer to him as such? I'm also curious what imagery evokes a servant.. -Paul
[2020-06-17 16:36:24] - mig: point taken. I wasn't really making a point, it just made me think. ~a
[2020-06-17 14:24:35] - title: that's more wholesale genocide than "property damage" - mig
[2020-06-16 21:25:39] - daniel: i don't doubt people use it. i used roku exclusively in 2009 (called "first generation", but it def wasn't the first roku). i loved my roku. "manage a corresponding device" i guess this is what i like best about chromecast. that all i need is that corresponding device. i don't need yet another fucking remote. my phone can be my remote. jeeze back when my phone had an IR-blaster in it, i had zero remotes. ~a
[2020-06-16 20:35:21] - I use Roku. Its convenient and works well for what I want it to do. Chromecast could work but its an extra step for Andrea / kids to have to manage a corresponding device. https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/20018868/roku_share_time.png Lots of people use it. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 20:30:46] - a: My ROKU position is a small one, but it is not because of their hardware business. Apparently they have a fairly robust ad business and also get money for subscriptions (to Netflix and Disney+ and such) made through their devices. I think they also get money for being included in smart TVs. It's basically a bet on the future of video streaming services over cable. -Paul
[2020-06-16 20:09:52] - paul: i won't be buying roku now. weird news . . . i'm not sure what google even gains from buying roku. they already "won" their war against amazon regarding chromecast. actually, why do you own roku? don't they have shit-tons of competition in their only product? (full disclosure, i use chrome-cast as my only way of watching tv/movies. i don't even have cable) ~a
[2020-06-16 20:06:27] - paul: hmmm. i'm on the fence. i won't object to what you said, but i forsee a lot of potential objections. on the one side: dude was shot in the back. how is that ok? on the other side: drunk driving is bad. resisting arrest is bad. fighting with the cops is how people get shot. burning down a building is bad. i'm not sure where i fall on this honestly. ~a
[2020-06-16 20:03:11] - a: Also, if you're a gambling man, apparently ROKU is up big today because of rumors Alphabet is thinking of buying them. That's not a game I am interested in playing, but I heard the rumor since I do already own some ROKU. -Paul
[2020-06-16 20:02:12] - a: As for the masks, I think my concern is less over the utilitarian issue of which saved more lives (we'll honestly never be able to know) and more about whether medical professionals should be lying to the public about things over what they perceive as the greater good. I think that's dangerous. -Paul
[2020-06-16 20:01:08] - a: Heh, I think I saw that. I haven't seen the video or honestly know much at all about it, so I refrain from commenting except to say that sometimes police shouldn't kill people and sometimes rioters shouldn't burn down Wendys. Is that non-objectionable enough? -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:43:41] - paul: huh interesting. yeah, i had believed we were "saving" masks for the first responders. that there were lies that they didn't help, or it wasn't proven that they would help, is interesting. would it have saved lives or lost them though? (first responders all being dead would have probably been for the worse, right?) i'm not sure gizmodo could know for sure. ~a
[2020-06-16 17:39:59] - paul: too late. dewey posted on facebook yesterday (not on his wall) about how it was neutral (?) that a drunk driver got shot. ~a
[2020-06-16 17:39:16] - a: Besides, I want to make SC2 tonight as non-contentious as possible. -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:38:53] - a: Heh, it's okay. I think I'm done for now anyway. At some point I'm just yelling at people for having feelings, which doesn't seem right. I guess I can understand feeling sympathetic to a certain degree.... I just think it makes no logical sense. Maybe that's my mistake for not differentiating enough between the two. -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:37:26] - https://gizmodo.com/dr-fauci-made-the-coronavirus-pandemic-worse-by-lying-1844050358?rev=1592326641870 Is this the first confirmation that we have that the government actively lied about the efficacy of masks with Coronavirus and it wasn't just an honest mistake? -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:30:43] - paul: and, i know you were talking to daniel, but sorry, you get me. i'll try to be as daniel-y as i can be: the riots are bad, very very bad. but as long as america postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. (kj) ~a
[2020-06-16 17:27:45] - it doesn't. it doesn't! ~a
[2020-06-16 17:27:30] - a: Sure, fix the problem, but how does violence and rioting and looting against your own people help fix the problem at all? -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:26:50] - a: Would it be better if I made it a bunch of members of militia upset over federal agents killing people at Waco or Ruby ridge? Who then proceed to kill a bunch of fellow militia members? I mean, I honestly can't think of any analogy that makes sense to me. -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:26:19] - yes it does matter. because the problem won't stop if we don't try to fix it, so does it matter if we just ignore the problem? yes? ~a
[2020-06-16 17:25:44] - yes. ~a
[2020-06-16 17:25:23] - a: I understand that terrorists are not cops, but does it matter? The point is that just because some group has done a lot of bad things, it doesn't justify or... give sympathy to violent protests that hurt either a bunch of innocents or the very people the protests are supposed to be protecting. -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:24:18] - not that violent minority, but the other one. ~a
[2020-06-16 17:24:02] - paul: i don't understand the sympathy for the violent minority either. ~a
[2020-06-16 17:23:25] - But I don't understand the sympathy for that violence minority. -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:23:10] - But, I dunno, it's weird because I feel like we agree on like 99% of this. I just don't understand the sympathy that is being given to not just protesters, but to the actual people doing the burning down and rioting and looting. Like, I can understand an argument that the violence is coming from a small minority and it shouldn't reflect on the larger group... -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:20:26] - paul: your analogy falls apart in many ways. a few that come to mind is the terrorist needs be sanctioned by the state, and have a union that gets them off even when they make mistakes due to incompetence or outright malice, and the terrorists need to be killing americans on a regular basis, and the state doesn't do anything about the terrorists, in fact they constantly have their back. there are more reasons . . . ~a
[2020-06-16 17:19:30] - Daniel: Because terrorists have killed thousands of Americans, right? So the deaths of a few dozen Americans during these protests is okay somehow? And destroying a bunch of American businesses is somehow understandable? It makes no sense! It seems like you're trying to argue that two wrongs somehow make a right. -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:17:19] - Daniel: "Do you understand institutional racism and systemic violence?" Yes? Do you understand violence and looting? Like, if a terrorist killed an American, and there were protests where a bunch of American businesses were destroyed and Americans were killed, would you be sympathetic to the protesters in that case? -Paul
[2020-06-16 17:12:22] - daniel: there needs to be a "uml lite" that just has the half of uml that adrian likes. ~a
[2020-06-16 17:07:04] - daniel: i've actually been trained in uml. and . . . i hate it? i mean i don't hate it, but i hate, like, 50% of it. ~a
[2020-06-16 17:05:54] - paul: "a single life is somehow worth vast amounts more" "the single act of police misconduct that precipitated it" how did you decide it was a single life? ~a
[2020-06-16 15:39:32] - On another subject has anyone here used UML modeling so much in their work that they think it needs to be taught to new people? I feel like no to me but just checking with others. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:31:31] - He was a tipping point but doesn't exist in a vacuum. People get more and more angry and upset each time it happens. AND IT JUST KEEPS HAPPENING. Why does this point have to be made again and again. OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER FOR A THOUSAND MORE TIMES -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:30:34] - Paul: Do you understand institutional racism and systemic violence? Like honestly I'm not sure you do. If you think that everything that is happening is 100% because of your Floyd your head is buried in some sand. If you want to draw an imaginary line and say that more people died from protests about Floyd than just him dying you are ignoring all the other people who the police just keep killing. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:27:11] - Daniel: How is it insane? What math are you using to decide that a single life is somehow worth vast amounts more than the dozens of lives and property damage? -Paul
[2020-06-16 14:26:09] - George Floyd's death was bad. So was David Dorn's. So is burning down a Wendy's. All of it is bad, and I don't have any more empathy for the people who killed David Dorn or burned down the Wendy's than I do for the police officers who killed George Floyd. -Paul
[2020-06-16 14:25:48] - " I feel like the rioting and looting should be condemned more, not less, than what happened to George Floyd. " - this is the crazy train part. You keep saying both are bad but protestors are worse. Thats insane. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:24:57] - I don't think either one should get a free pass - protestors being violent is bad - but A) its a reaction to the police being bad in the first place B) the police are on a scale that VASTLY does more damage than protestors C) police are state funded agents. Its crazy that this is even a question. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:24:19] - Because, yeah, I do "want to condem the people protesting them for being like WTF stop with this shit". I thought that is what we just established, that we all condemn the rioting and looting and violence. Just because some police are "off the freaking handle" doesn't mean that some protesters aren't as well. -Paul
[2020-06-16 14:23:03] - Daniel: I mean, I guess this ultimately comes down to the idea that you basically think all cops are responsible (and should be condemned) for the bad things that some cops do while the protesters shouldn't be condemned for what a minority of them do? Because I don't see why one group should be universally condemned for the actions of a minority and the other gets a free pass. -Paul
[2020-06-16 14:18:53] - Because the police are off the freaking handle and you want to condem the people protesting them for being like WTF stop with this shit. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:18:26] - No I think you should be comparing to all the people the police keep killing and keeping beating up and keep macing and keep tear gassing and keep choke holding and keep tasering and keep driving around with out seatbelts and on and on. George Flody doesn't exist in a vacuum. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:16:27] - Daniel: I was comparing to the George Floyd death. Admittedly, it's an awkward comparison, but I think it's a better one than comparing it to... what? all people killed by police in 2019? -Paul
[2020-06-16 14:15:17] - Also only one of those groups is a state agency directly funded by our tax dollars. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 14:14:55] - Paul: "claimed more lives" wat. Police have killed SO many more people. Like orders of magnitudes. I think I've read about like 4? people that died because of protestors. Those are tragic to be sure but putting them on the scale of the police is farcical. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ So yes I think the police violence is worse. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 13:53:32] - But the rioting and looting and violence have claimed more lives (many of which are just as tragic) AND has economically screwed many of the people the movement is supposed to be helping. If anything, I feel like the rioting and looting should be condemned more, not less, than what happened to George Floyd. -Paul
[2020-06-16 13:52:18] - So, yeah, I guess it feels.... not as sincere to me? Like, it's obviously not an equal comparison, but this violence and looting and rioting seems multiple times worse than the single act of police misconduct that precipitated it (although it is still bad). George Floyd's death was awful and terrible and an example of many problems with policing... -Paul
[2020-06-16 13:50:43] - Daniel: It seems pretty clear to me that your sympathies are still with the protesters. Adrian has been going to some of the protests and you mention feeling empathy for burning down buildings and understanding why they would steal your car and whatnot. I can't imagine either of you feeling empathy for police tear gassing protesters or understanding why they would kneel on somebody's neck. -Paul
[2020-06-16 13:48:45] - Daniel: "Maybe its a question of perceived focus" I think that's exactly it. You guys think I'm focused on the protesters because I don't mention the police response as much (reminder, much of it has been bad and we need structural reforms), and while I understand both of you have said you condemn the rioting and looting... -Paul
[2020-06-16 13:34:16] - daniel: i like repeating the mistakes of the past. it's like living history. why go to williamsburg when we can do that shit right here. ~a
[2020-06-16 13:26:22] - mig: I'm sure it sucks for them, cause its not good that the stuff was burned down. The point is though that if you just focus on that part you are doomed to repeat it so maybe for the sake of the future whoever people that might have a problem finding groceries we should try to make the situation better. -Daniel
[2020-06-16 13:14:47] - daniel: I'm sure the understanding is of great solace to the minorities in chicago having a hard time finding grocercies. - mig
[2020-06-15 21:08:35] - Maybe its a question of perceived focus. I think violence is bad from protesters but I think the violence from the police is a bigger deal and then the issue of racism even bigger so when it feels like we are focusing on a wendy's burning it seems to be missing the overall more important picture by focusing on the wrong things. -Daniel
[2020-06-15 21:04:33] - I don't think the protests should be violent or that it is good when they are violent. I understand why they are sometimes violent though. -Daniel
[2020-06-15 21:04:00] - paul: every time i collect quotes i'm also telling you "both things are bad". maybe we just agree on everything. ~a
[2020-06-15 21:01:45] - I have to run, now, though. Gotta watch the kids. -paul
[2020-06-15 21:01:32] - a: In fact, in the quotes I collected were two which basically just said, "both things are bad". -Paul
[2020-06-15 21:00:41] - a: "which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots"? Uh, I feel like that is far closer to my point than it is to yours (and Daniel's). My point is that there are serious problems with policing AND these riots are also bad. That has been my main point the entire time. -Paul
[2020-06-15 20:59:10] - obviously king was talking about a different set of conditions. but i think it applies today. ~a
[2020-06-15 20:58:40] - paul: certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. do you agree? or do you have a different position? ~a
[2020-06-15 20:58:02] - paul: ok. ~a
[2020-06-15 20:57:47] - Where we disagree is that some people are less absolute on the "don't be violent" point. -Paul
[2020-06-15 20:57:24] - paul: "I still don't think it is right" nobody thinks it's right, paul. even daniel qualifies his words when he says that he understands it. ~a
[2020-06-15 20:57:08] - a: Yes! And that is exactly what I am saying: "Let's change things" and "don't be violent
[2020-06-15 20:56:36] - a: Okay, that's an explanation for why it is happening, but I still don't think it is right (nor do I think the police were right to kneel on George Floyd as he said he couldn't breath). -paul
[2020-06-15 20:55:10] - paul: king was all about nonviolence, but he also said the same basic words i've been seeing from daniel. that violence is bad, but we'll see lots more violence if we don't change anything. ~a
[2020-06-15 20:53:52] - There have been many instance of the police behaving badly during these protests, it should be noted, including video of them slashing tires of cars, pushing elderly men, and shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at media and peaceful protesters. -Paul
[2020-06-15 20:53:49] - paul: "riots do not develop out of thin air. certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots." this isn't out of context. i think basically what daniel has been saying. "as long as america postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again". ~a
[2020-06-15 20:52:51] - Daniel: because that's where I am getting pushback. How do I devote equal time to criticizing the police actions when nobody is disagreeing with me? Do I just follow up all of my responses to you and Adrian with random criticisms of the police? -Paul
[2020-06-15 20:51:18] - Daniel: "Its the idea that when people only criticize the protesters that you are either explicitly or implicitly supporting the police by virtue of where you are spending your attention/focus." I can paste some of my links where I criticize the police as well if you like. If your point is that more time is spent criticizing the protesters, then I fully admit that, but I think it should be obvious that the reason is... -Paul
[2020-06-15 20:48:57] - Daniel: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/29/minneapolis-protest-martin-luther-king-quote-riot-george-floyd/5282486002/ You mean this MLK article? I'm not sure I understand how that's a defense of rioting. MLK was all about nonviolence (https://reason.com/video/martin-luther-king-jr-s-unwavering-opposition-to-violence-still-matters/) -Paul
[2020-06-15 19:14:35] - Anger isn't always rational. I'm not saying its good but if you can empathize with the anger then you ought to have some ability to understand how we got there. So if the person who burned down Wendy's is caught and charged then sure but I think that overall the greater 'we' is better served by trying to fix why they got so mad in the first place. -Daniel
[2020-06-15 19:04:24] - or bringing immense hardship on the very people they claim to be "fighting injustice" for. - mig
[2020-06-15 19:02:24] - daniel: I can empathize with the anger, but not with the willingness to destroy other people's livelihoods. - mig
[2020-06-15 18:58:34] - How about we plan for Tuesday and I will try to jump on if I have time later in the evening. Sound good? -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:57:04] - Specifically burning the Wendy's is dumb but I can empathize with what led to it. -Daniel
[2020-06-15 18:49:32] - a: not directed at you. more venting about my fb feed. - mig
[2020-06-15 18:43:04] - But I am fine if you all want to play without me. -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:42:32] - I might be Wed but might not be so we'll see for me? -Daniel
[2020-06-15 18:41:44] - I am busy Tuesday evening. -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:41:34] - paul: I vote Tuesday. -Daniel
[2020-06-15 18:40:47] - If you want to make violent protests not happen then you need to help fix what led to them. Thats the point. -Daniel
[2020-06-15 18:39:04] - Paul: There was a lot there that I wasn't here for but I think criticizing protesters is fine and allowed when they get violent. Its the idea that when people only criticize the protesters that you are either explicitly or implicitly supporting the police by virtue of where you are spending your attention/focus. I think the MLK article I posted like three different times now makes that point. -Daniel
[2020-06-15 18:30:33] - paul: i vote tuesday or wednesday. ~a
[2020-06-15 18:28:23] - Also, when should we do SC2 this week? -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:28:14] - a: Okay, well, I am up to 9 quotes (although maybe half are just expressing support for police reforms in general and not criticizing the police response directly) and since you have zero I am stopping and claiming victory.
-Paul[2020-06-15 18:23:39] - a: We can wait. I just wanted to officially announce, at least, that I'm ceding that bet to you. I'm feeling less confident on our other than I was when I made it, but it's still a high percentage outcome. -- Xpovos
[2020-06-15 18:23:16] - paul: your employer hates me because i distract you from work? if that's the case, i think my employer probably hates me too. if it helps, i'm not compiling any lists.
~a[2020-06-15 18:21:27] - a: Are we talking about police behavior in general? Or only during the protests? Also, my employer probably hates you.
-Paul[2020-06-15 18:20:22] - xpovos:
uhhh, however is fine with me. i accept all of the things. we can wait if you're fine with that. i think there's like a 50/50 chance you'll win our other bet. ~a[2020-06-15 18:18:43] - So... how would you like me to pay you your winnings? -- Xpovos
[2020-06-15 18:18:25] - a: I count this as a significant change amounting to a revocation or rescindment of EO 55. (https://www.governor.virginia.gov/media/governorvirginiagov/governor-of-virginia/pdf/eo/EO-65-Phase-Two.pdf) It was published June 2nd and amended June 9th. I think this counts as a flat victory for you, though obviously we're still under some restrictions. -- Xpovos
[2020-06-15 18:13:07] - paul: yep. questionable. i agree. questionable, dangerous even. i'm fine with it though. but danger is my middle name. i'll wear a mask and socially distance so if i catch the coronavirus i'll be able to (to the best of my ability) keep from giving it to someone else! the rules for june are VERY different for the rules for april and there is a scientifically sound reason for that. ~a
[2020-06-15 18:11:33] - paul: ok.
~a[2020-06-15 18:11:20] - a: Sure, I'll play your game. I'll start compiling a list of every time I criticized the police response and you make a list of all the times I spoke positively about their response and we'll compare notes. -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:10:27] - a: And frankly, in this coronavirus environment where lots of people have been quick to jump on anybody and everybody who wants to re-open states or end social distancing as stupid and dangerous, I think even a completely peaceful protest is a questionable idea. -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:09:13] - paul: "i'm happy to criticize a lot of the really inexcusable police responses" well more to your point i don't think i've ever seen you do this. you seem to have overall positive opinions of the police responses, and that's all fine with me, seriously it is. but it seems misaligned . . . et cetera. ~a
[2020-06-15 18:08:57] - a: But I think the idea of judging all of the protesters or judging all of the police is a bit of a misdirect. Just because all police (or protesters) aren't bad, it doesn't mean we can't criticize what happens. Most police are good, but sometimes they do bad things and we should work to stop that. Most of the protesters are good people, but sometimes they do bad things too and we should criticize that as well. -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:06:20] - a: And yeah, I think most of this actually applies more strongly to Daniel, since I think you are between him and I on this topic, but I guess I don't quite get the romanticism of these protests. I'm happy to criticize a lot of the really inexcusable police responses I've seen (I might have seen more videos of it than you all, honestly), but I think a lot of evil has been done by the protesters as well. -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:05:32] - paul: that's correct. i won't judge a demonstration by its most violent participants. i will leave if i witness violence, but i won't judge a demonstration by its most violent participants and i don't think you should either. or at least, if you do, be consistent and judge a police force by its most violent cops. ~a
[2020-06-15 18:02:38] - a: Like, I get that you have condemned the looting and whatnot, but you also still seem to have overall positive opinions of the protesters and want to participate in the protests and that's all fine with me, seriously it is! But that seems misaligned with your views about the police and I imagine you might think poorly of me if I went to a pro-police protest, for example. -Paul
[2020-06-15 18:00:28] - paul: i think the protesters are bad in the same way. i won't speak for daniel, but he probably disagrees with me there. ~a
[2020-06-15 17:59:55] - a: I won't speak for Miguel, but I think the frustration all along for me is that it seems like we are all pretty much aligned with the idea that policing in general needs some reforms based on the actions of some bad cops (or, in Daniel's case, maybe all the cops are bad). The misalignment seems to be that you and Daniel don't seem to think the protesters are bad in the same way? -Paul
[2020-06-15 17:42:41] - mig: i dunno why i thought that was directed at me. maybe i shouldn't have said all that stuff. ~a
[2020-06-15 17:26:45] - chopping all the bad thoughts ~a
[2020-06-15 17:20:52] - mig: i'm sorry someone burned down that wendies. i'm not being sarcastic. it sucks. i'm sorry, and i condemn the actions. ~a
[2020-06-15 17:20:22] - mig: judging a demonstration by its most violent participants but NOT judging a police force by its most violent cops is the language of the oppressor. i've never set a wendies on fire and i've never killed an unarmed black man. i'm not sure how to fix this problem, honestly, but if you want me to keep apologizing for and condemn violent protesters because i went to a protest in dc a few times, i will. ~a
[2020-06-15 17:18:13] - mig: clearly. ~a
[2020-06-15 17:17:48] - It was clearly wendy's fault. - mig
[2020-06-15 14:36:36] - paul: i don't know. i'm just now learning about cringe. ~a
[2020-06-15 14:36:15] - mig: ah. ok. well i'm embarrassed by the terms. and the statues. so i guess we each cringe at different things. ~a
[2020-06-15 14:35:26] - a: So if more people cringe at renaming than people cringe at using the terms.... you would say not rename? Or does the intensity of the cringing matter? -Paul
[2020-06-15 14:11:12] - Is it bad? Probably not. But it's really fucking embarrassing to watch. - mig
[2020-06-15 13:59:41] - mig: ok, that's fair. is cringing bad? because if it is, we should probably use some science to decide how to prevent the most cringing. ~a
[2020-06-15 13:54:54] - a: No the terms themselves aren't really that cringe-y to me. - mig
[2020-06-15 12:39:09] - mig: that's not what I asked though. do the terms themselves make you cringe? ~a
[2020-06-15 11:27:28] - a: I do find the belief that using these terms in the context of those technologies somehow perpetuates racism is quite cringe-y, yes. - mig
[2020-06-15 02:27:37] - a: Really? What have we got so far? It's an honest question. The only thing I know of is Justin Amash's bill to end qualified immunity and I'm not sure if that is going anywhere or not. -Paul
[2020-06-15 02:09:02] - "did those end up going anywhere?" we're already miles beyond where i thought we would be at this point. so, yes? ~a
[2020-06-15 01:18:44] - a: "maybe not as important as removing statues of confederate generals installed in the 1900s" I guess this is a little bit of why I don't like the "black lives matter" framing. Because instead of focusing on police reforms (did those end up going anywhere?) we're playing around with stuff that I think is pretty pointless like bringing down statues and renaming things. -Paul
[2020-06-15 00:25:33] - mig: ok, maybe. but do you cringe when somebody says "master/slave" should probably be renamed? i don't. it probably should be. maybe not as important as removing statues of confederate generals installed in the 1900s, but still. ~a
[2020-06-15 00:06:04] - The concern is that continued use of these racially-loaded terms could prolong racial stereotypes.â€. This is peak woke cult cringe. - mig
[2020-06-14 23:39:27] - ah I missed your messages. I think it could be "allow" list and "deny" list which seems fine and normal? ~a
[2020-06-14 23:37:34] - aaron: I agree with changing "master/slave" and "black/white list" but git doesn't use "master/slave" it uses master/branch which (to me) evokes no such issues. do you agree? ~a
[2020-06-14 23:37:33] - if they're going to just replace them with vague placeholders at least something like 'sunlight' and 'moonlight' or 'ingroup' and 'outgroup' would be like... two short opposites which, maybe, mean something to someone i guess - aaron
[2020-06-14 23:34:53] - i'm not bothered by that because they're replacing it with 'main' which is faster to type. but i'm annoyed by replacing 'whitelist' and 'blacklist' with 'allowlist' and 'denylist' or 'excludelist'... those aren't words, they're longer, they're not clearly antonyms, and the fact that even in the article they had to include two of them because nobody knows which one is better should speak to how ambiguous they are - aaron
[2020-06-14 23:32:49] - xpovos: it's my mom's 6th time being an election worker this june. it will be her first time as predict chief in ffc (sorry if I don't have the right terminology). ~a
[2020-06-14 23:28:12] - https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-to-replace-master-with-alternative-term-to-avoid-slavery-references/ GitHub to replace "master" with alternative term to avoid slavery references - aaron
[2020-06-13 20:43:13] - mig: yep. i'm not sure if anyone here has praised or condoned the violent actions. flippant . . . maybe. ~a
[2020-06-13 19:06:35] - Though that also applies for the police as well. - mig
[2020-06-13 19:03:13] - "Judging a demonstration by its most violent participants" if you are going to be flippant about the gravity of the violence, and even in some cases condoning or praising the violent participants, then it is not unreasonable to be judged by those bad actors. - mig
[2020-06-13 17:08:22] - true. ~a
[2020-06-13 16:42:29] - a: not really but the whole bunker thing was much ado about nothing. Just a dumb pissing match between the media and Trump. - mig
[2020-06-13 03:26:00] - https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself This goes on a little long, but I thought that the first half or so was really good. It covers a lot of ground that we have recently discussed and addresses a lot of issues that I think are important too. -Paul
[2020-06-13 02:20:28] - did we ever believe the "inspection" story. i feel like we didn't. ~a
[2020-06-12 16:17:38] - Judging a demonstration by its most violent participants but NOT judging a police force by its most violent cops is the language of the oppressor.
[2020-06-12 15:26:21] - a: Yeah, seriously, just like a "basics of econ" course that teaches about inflation or stuff like the stock market and bonds and everything else. -Paul
[2020-06-12 15:14:39] - it's days like this i feel like i should take an economics course. or get an econ degree? i mean, why not, right? i can't believe we got out of tj and vt without taking a single econ course. my ONE stat course was good, but not nearly enough. ~a
[2020-06-12 15:02:57] - paul: maybe more to your actual point those is the time value of money. (this works for pensions, mortgages, bonds, but also equities). accounting for a future payout needs to include what you could have been doing with that money in the mean time? ~a
[2020-06-12 14:50:35] - paul: true, true. it's why i said "ish". if you account for "everything" like inflation, interest, taxes, chance of early-bankruptcy, chance of lawsuits, chance of unexpected costs / windfalls or a good/bad-earnings-report, etc, the price will move around because of these things. i meant, at the end of the day, a stock is only worth what it can produce. ~a
[2020-06-12 14:47:31] - a: Yeah, and maybe that's the case with Ford, but considering the market generally goes up, wouldn't that be a losing best even with the dividend payout? -Paul
[2020-06-12 14:26:16] - paul: "like, we talk about the stock market being forward looking, but how far forward?" this is a good point. the market should generally look forward the "correct" amount. i.e. if a company will likely be bankrupt in 20 years, then its price should be equal(ish) to what it'll earn (and pay out in dividends) over the next 20 years. as those 20 years progress, the price should decrease as the dividends are paid out? ~a
[2020-06-12 14:21:42] - a: And now it's coming back with a vengeance. I do wish I had moved some money into Robinhood yesterday to buy a little bit.
-Paul[2020-06-12 14:21:01] - a: Uh, I don't tend to worry much if Ford is under/over valued. It's probably undervalued for what it is doing today, but overvalued when looking at its future prospects? Like, we talk about the stock market being forward looking, but how far forward? Maybe we all suspect Ford will be bankrupt in 20 years, but that doesn't mean it is worth $0 right now, right? -Paul
[2020-06-12 13:06:51] - daniel/paul: "was surprised how much things went up" / "crazy of late" / "it has me spooked". yesterday i was smiling at this conversation. we had it less than 24 hours before the worst market day since march. and march . . . was record-breaking-bad. ~a
[2020-06-11 20:51:22] - paul: there we might find agreement. like . . . for instance, is the market bad at valuating huge car companies? is stuff not priced in correctly? i *feel* like it's probably better at it than i am, but maybe not. maybe the market is run by a bunch of old guys that can't see the direction the world is heading, but i feel like that might be wrong. ~a
[2020-06-11 20:50:10] - paul: maybe where we can find agreement is: is ford overvalued or undervalued? ~a
[2020-06-11 20:49:57] - paul: *on average* it'll increase at the same rate as the market. so, like there's a chance it'll lose to the market and a chance that it'll beat the market (not 50/50, but those chances are "balanced"-ish). assuming everything is priced in, i think on average, buying $1 of ford and buying $1 of vtsax has the same potential for earnings. ~a
[2020-06-11 19:05:42] - a: I think some of it is priced in, but you said Ford is dying. Ford has a $24B market cap now. Do you think it will have the same market cap in 10 years? Or smaller? There's still a time element involved. -Paul
[2020-06-11 17:42:58] - paul: i think we can make judgements on where ford is going as a stock. we can see the writing on the wall for a lot of companies. but most of that is priced in, so we (mostly) we can't know whether it makes sense to own it or not own it, vs any other (large-ish) stock. ~a
[2020-06-11 17:36:03] - a: "and what if you can't? i think that's sort of the point." Sure, but you were the one who said "for once the market sees what we all can see. that ford is dying" and that you think Ford had "a small shot". I'm just saying that those sound like positions that indicate that you think you can make judgments on where Ford is going as a stock. -Paul
[2020-06-11 17:31:10] - brb. in meetings. ~
[2020-06-11 17:29:55] - it could be this is the crux of our discussions: "that seems needlessly complicated" it is basically what all of this depends on. ~a
[2020-06-11 17:29:02] - "If you CAN assign percentages like 30% for Ford or 70% for Tesla" and what if you can't? i think that's sort of the point. but it depends on the fact that shitty stocks with shitty futures will be priced in. so owning them isn't bad. ~a
[2020-06-11 17:28:56] - a: I mean, I guess one of your 70% ones could go down a ton and wipe out the gains from a bunch of 70%ers... But generally winners tend to make up for multiple losers and not the other way around. -Paul
[2020-06-11 17:27:30] - a: Sure, I guess, but that seems needlessly complicated. The argument that you can't beat the market by picking individual stocks seems like it has to rest on the idea that there's no way of knowing which individual stocks will beat the market. If you CAN assign percentages like 30% for Ford or 70% for Tesla, then investing in a bunch of 70% stocks (or avoid a bunch of 30% stocks) should work. -Paul
[2020-06-11 17:09:30] - paul: hmmm, no i think that's all wrong. as i mentioned, don't get hung up on the 50/50 part. if there's a 33% chance that ford beats the market, but when it does (hypothetically) is beat the market by a bunch, that's still a good thing to own! beating the market by a bunch is "easier" when it's at a discount, like when the sales are 100b and the price is only 24b, like is the case with ford. ~a
[2020-06-11 17:01:24] - a: "i agree (sort of) that it's hard or impossible to know which stocks will outperform the market" That's the opposite of my point.
I think it is possible to... get better odds with some companies versus others. For example, maybe a 70% chance Tesla outperforms and 30% chance Ford does. -Paul[2020-06-11 17:00:09] - a: I guess I'm confused. I don't think Ford trading "at a discount" is relevant. We only care if it is going to outperform the market going forward. If it is a less than 50% chance (regardless of if it is a discount now), then we still shouldn't buy it, right? Likewise, if it is more than a 50% chance (even if there is no discount), then we should buy it. -Paul
[2020-06-11 16:51:45] - paul: "basically a 50/50 shot of outperforming from here on forward" this is an oversimplification, but i guess it's fine. just don't get hung up on the 50/50, i agree (sort of) that it's hard or impossible to know which stocks will outperform the market. if it's a company with a shit-plan, and a shit-future, that will mostly be priced in. ~a
[2020-06-11 16:47:54] - paul: less than a 50% chance? yes. less than a 50% chance, i agree with that. but you can buy ford at a discount! if you tell me i can buy a huge company that has 100B in sales (their earnings are shit, but that can be said about tesla as well) for only 24B? that's a steal! 50/50 chances be damned, i'll take a 25% chance!
~a[2020-06-11 16:44:17] - a: Like, the way I understand Daniel (and your?) points is that every stock right now has basically a 50/50 shot of outperforming from here on forward, so how can we pick? -Paul
[2020-06-11 16:43:44] - a: I'm.... not sure your words back that up? You said Ford has "a small shot", which seems to imply less than a 50% chance. Doesn't that mean you should take a chance betting against Ford then? -Paul
[2020-06-11 16:42:05] - paul: yes, that's what the parenthetical is about. i actually do believe ford has a shot. a small shot, that is discounted by the current market price. which is why daniel is right, as usual.
we should hold a majority of our equities in vtsax. ~a[2020-06-11 16:40:53] - a: You are almost word for word making the point I was trying to make months ago about how we can usually tell in advance if a company is going down the drain.
-Paul[2020-06-11 16:38:41] - paul: anybody can see that ford is a dying company. for once the market sees what we all can see. that ford is dying. (i'm not sure if i actually believe this, i guess i'm trying to make a point?) ~a
[2020-06-11 16:33:57] - a: It's a little bonkers how much the market is giving Tesla credit for the future and discounting the current automakers. It really believes the legacy automakers have like no shot. -Paul
[2020-06-11 16:32:27] - it's funny they mention ford. nkla wasn't hurt by the market nearly as much as ford was today. ~a
[2020-06-11 16:23:03] - market cap N/A hmm. ~a
[2020-06-11 16:21:36] - a: https://www.barrons.com/articles/nikola-stock-tesla-semi-truck-short-seller-ipo-51591794032 -Paul
[2020-06-11 16:21:32] - ah right, and that's why elon was saying they should push harder making the tesla trucks. ok, that all makes more sense now. ~a
[2020-06-11 16:20:07] - ah, so not nokia. oops. ~a
[2020-06-11 16:19:08] - a: Uh, NKLA got a lot of attention lately for having some huge market cap despite having basically no revenue because it hasn't actually made anything yet. They're supposed to be making an EV semi. -Paul
[2020-06-11 16:15:01] - i am finding that "nikola tesla" is very similar to nokia tesla . . . ~a
[2020-06-11 16:14:12] - haha, maybe. remind me again? i heard something about nok+tsla in the news, but my googling isn't finding it. ~a
[2020-06-11 16:10:47] - a: Wonder if he is referring to NKLA? -Paul
[2020-06-11 15:45:18] - paul: tsla today ~a
[2020-06-11 15:31:06] - a: Don't think it will work. Judging by comments I have seen, it's annoying people. I do think not reading beyond the headline is a big problem (or better yet, looking for additional sources to get other angles on the story), but I don't think this will help much. -Paul
[2020-06-11 15:21:17] - beware of the title ("limit" is probably not the word i would use here). thoughts? i'm not sure it will work. it touches on this study: 70% of fb users only read the headline of science stories before commenting ~a
[2020-06-11 14:55:16] - a: Yeah, I loved how they included the retweet counts and how different they were. One piece of bad info was retweeted like half a million times!? -Paul
[2020-06-11 14:12:43] - mig: Twitter mobs? No, but I think there's a grey area. Something like Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown might fall into it where people jumped all over an early narrative pushed by the media before more complicated details came out. -Paul
[2020-06-11 01:21:38] - let's post her home address. ~a
[2020-06-11 00:26:48] - this woman also still gets to remain anonymous, to boot. - mig
[2020-06-11 00:21:14] - a: they don't apologize because they believe they are doing god's work. - mig
[2020-06-11 00:19:15] - Paul: that ending! "As for the woman who shared his home address: She deleted it and posted an apology, writing that in all of her eagerness to see justice served, she was swept up in the mob that so gleefully shared misinformation, depriving someone of their own right to justice. Her correction was shared by fewer than a dozen people." her apology didn't admit wrongdoing! ~a
[2020-06-10 23:53:02] - paul: is there ever a time to approve of the twitter mob? It's pretty much a toxic and dangerous cult at this point. - mig
[2020-06-10 22:12:41] - https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/what-its-like-to-get-doxed-for-taking-a-bike-ride.html This is why I very rarely approve of Twitter mobs. Too often innocents get caught in the cross-fire and even guilty parties can get punishments not befitting of the crime. -Paul
[2020-06-10 20:07:26] - 12 minute video. there is nothing amazingly "new" here it's all stuff you know already. but it was interesting to see it broken apart with visuals and audio i hadn't seen/heard before (specific videos new to me and all of the police-scanner recordings i hadn't heard). it's about the photo op on june 1st and the clearly-false statements made by the administration afterwards. ~a
[2020-06-10 17:53:34] - ok, so, rebalancing is another thing you can't do with a paid down mortgage (without insane amounts of friction). i'm not sure how much that is "worth". ~a
[2020-06-10 17:52:09] - never heard of humble dollar so i don't know if we should trust them, or not, but they do mention that the mortgage is like a "negative bond", and that's an interesting way of looking at it. ~a
[2020-06-10 17:47:18] - a: Reverse mortgage.
But yes, your point is taken. -Paul[2020-06-10 17:47:12] - paul: otoh, you could refinance your mortgage with a cash-payout. but, i'm not sure how easy that is to do. (i'm intentionally ignoring heloc, but i guess bonds are floating much like heloc is) ~a
[2020-06-10 17:46:16] - paul: (yeah, i know we've discussed this before, but) if you equate paying down down your mortgage with "buying a bond", you can't then later "sell a bond to retire, or go on a vacation, or buy a car, or whatever". that part of the scenario just plain fails (unless your final mortgage payment happens before you go on vacation and before you buy a car and before you retire). you can't un-payoff-your-mortgage, but you can sell a bond. ~a
[2020-06-10 17:40:37] - a: Sure. I guess I just figure if I want to take on risk, then I want the superior returns of stocks. I could probably get better returns with less "risk" than bonds by paying down my mortgage.
-Paul[2020-06-10 15:03:36] - paul: so, i hear you, bonds have risk . . . but do they *really*? i mean do they have a lot or a little? it seems like bonds hold a lot of their money in mortgages. so, when would a perfect-storm have been for mortgages? 2008, right? so . . . why did vbtlx stay flat in 2008? i don't really have an answer, i just feel like bond risks seem like they could be overstated compared to their huge reward (currently around 2%-3% per year). ~a
[2020-06-10 14:52:27] - a: Didn't mean to imply you were timing, just making it clear that I am not acting on my hunch. Yes, it is because bonds have "risk" and CDs don't. -Paul
[2020-06-10 14:47:27] - paul: "we both know I irrationally hate bonds" remind me the reasoning there again? without diving back into the great emergency fund debate, why are CDs = good and bonds = bad? is it because bonds have risk and CDs don't? ~a
[2020-06-10 14:45:25] - paul: i'm not timing the market. my bond percentage is on a curve i decided years before the recession. ~a
[2020-06-10 14:44:45] - vgt has new all-time highs . . . which seems so contrary to inital jobless claims which are STILL at record-breaking levels (initial jobless claims are a delta, which shows a dangerous speed, not even just a dangerous position). ~a
[2020-06-10 14:43:06] - a: I agree, although I'm keeping everything in stocks. It's not just because I don't try to time the market, but also because there's nowhere else to put things in my mind. CDs are returning like 1% (and we both know I irrationally hate bonds). -Paul
[2020-06-10 14:41:27] - Daniel: For example: This quarter the Freedom Portfolio is up over 50%. That's obviously off the Coronavirus low, but still.... that's just one quarter! -Paul
[2020-06-10 14:41:08] - honestly it has me spooked (earlier in the week i made sure my bond percentage was correct). imo we've returned to our pre-recession highs too quickly. ~a
[2020-06-10 14:40:01] - Daniel: Yeah, the market has been a little crazy of late. -Paul
[2020-06-10 14:38:24] - I check money stuff about once a month and was surprised how much things went up in the second half of may / early June. -Daniel
[2020-06-10 14:32:28] - Tesla is over $1k a share. I am old enough to remember the controversy over $420 and funding secured. -Paul
[2020-06-10 14:27:52] - a: Yeah, there are probably like 3-4 units for each race that I probably haven't built more than a dozen or so of in the past year.
-Paul[2020-06-10 14:17:20] - omg, there are a TON for each race. i could even spend a ton of games building protoss units i never build . . . phoenix, oracle, warp prisim, sentry, adept, high templar, disruper, archon . . . i make those never and honestly don't even know what most of them are even good/bad at. even tempest i'm not sure the best times/places to use them, but i do make them a lot. mothership almost always seems like a waste, but maybe it's not. ~a
[2020-06-10 14:11:21] - a: Yeah, I want to try to find a way to shake things up a bit. I can offer to try to build units I don't normally build (there are a ton for each race, honestly). -Paul
[2020-06-10 13:57:57] - paul: that's fine with me. i love that plan. (daniel and i have to be split though, because we're both hurt by that game more than others. i still love it tbh, i'll always choose "random" if we're playing a game where i don't care if we win or not
) ~a[2020-06-10 13:56:10] - For those playing starcraft tonight... should we plan for one or two games where everybody plays their worst race? -Paul
[2020-06-09 21:39:35] - https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/terry-crews-twitter-backlash-after-black-supremacy-tweet/3172893001/ a heretic! excommunicate him! - mig
[2020-06-09 17:15:52] - paul: 2021-2029 will be bull years for the stock market. have faith in my cool statistic - aaron
[2020-06-09 15:02:00] - But I probably have already put too many words in their mouths. -Paul
[2020-06-09 15:01:41] - Daniel: And because they're radical feminists.... they don't really have soft spots in their hearts for men.... particularly those pretending to be women (in their minds). -Paul
[2020-06-09 15:01:04] - Daniel: Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist - As near as I can tell, they are radical feminists who think trans-women (is that the term?) people are just men trying to pretend to be women. -Paul
[2020-06-09 15:00:37] - Daniel: Trans-exclusionary radical feminist. -- Xpovos
[2020-06-09 14:54:11] - TERF? This is not something I am familiar with. -Daniel
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