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[2021-04-02 18:36:05] - a: (about it being in single player). -Paul
[2021-04-02 18:35:56] - a: I think you're right, now that you mention it. -Paul
[2021-04-02 18:26:32] - link ~a
[2021-04-02 18:24:45] - yeah apparently dragoons are in sc2 too. i didn't play enough of the one player, but i think they're in there somewhere? ~a
[2021-04-02 18:24:36] - a: But yeah, pretty incredibly how compelling a story they told with those TV screens and simple animated gif level stuff. -Paul
[2021-04-02 18:24:08] - a: No stalkers. They were dragoons back then. Never really understood why the name change. They felt pretty identical. -Paul
[2021-04-02 18:03:23] - aw man, this screenshot just brought back a bunch of memories. i forgot how much i kinda miss this game. though, i'd probably hate how many ui improvements that don't exist in the original (shift click, etc). and and . . . no void rays?! no blink? ~a
[2021-04-02 17:02:25] - paul/daniel/aaron: trump is the worst. ~a
[2021-04-02 16:56:37] - It's a lot easier to think that somebody is an awful person with no redeeming characteristics and must be opposed in all things vs somebody is well-intentioned but misled and does some good things and some bad things (not necessarily talking about Trump, but all politicians). -Paul
[2021-04-02 16:55:32] - Daniel: "I imagine there is some reason that people keep doing it" Because I think people are drawn to it. Most people don't want to read a sober, reasoned, nuance argument about how Trump did some good things but more bad things when it came to COVID response, but lots of people want to hear about how stupid he is and the awful things he did. -Paul
[2021-04-02 16:36:20] - I think we would agree less hyperbole is good, but I imagine there is some reason that people keep doing it. Polarization is probably good for MSNBC / Fox as then the viewers are less likely to switch networks etc. -Daniel
[2021-04-02 16:35:35] - I wonder if there a tipping point where the hyperbole effects you one way or another. In either case I wouldn't think its a big effect. Sort of like anchoring in psychology? /shrug more of a theory / idea. Maybe that would help explain / be a factor in increased polarization of the US? More hyperbole used which helps people drift one way or the other. -Daniel
[2021-04-02 15:51:35] - a: And I think we saw this with the 2016 election. Democrats had spent so much time accusing every previous Republican Presidential candidate a racist that they became the boy who cried wolf when they started calling Trump racist and people just thought: "There goes that liberal media again, calling all conservatives racist". -Paul
[2021-04-02 15:50:10] - a: But let me make this addition: If somebody says to me: "Donald Trump is literally the most evil man alive" then even if I resist and don't let that affect my opinion on Trump at all.... it definitely will affect my opinion of the person who said that, and the next time they tell me something ("kids in cages is bad") I'm probably a lot less likely to believe them. -Paul
[2021-04-02 15:48:31] - a: "stick to our guns" Sure! In an ideal world my opinions on things would be 100% logical and unaffected by emotional appeals. It's what I try to do. It's what I think everybody should do. I think I do a good job, but I think it would be foolish to say I am unaffected, and I believe many others are definitely affected. -Paul
[2021-04-02 14:48:06] - aaron/paul: it seems like you both think *your* feelings on a matter is a negotiation that someone else has a say in. i mean, i get it, we're all emotional beings that can be easily hacked, but don't we also sometimes "stick to our guns" about new data and arguments coming in? i'm not sure i agree my feelings on a topic are just a negotiation. ~a
[2021-04-02 14:33:48] - aaron: Oh, and I forgot to mention, I agree. -Paul
[2021-04-02 14:33:13] - aaron: "if i hear something bafflingly unreasonable, it pushes my opinion further in the opposite direction" More important to whether or not it happens to me (I try not to let it, but I would be a fool to think it doesn't affect me), I think that's how it works for a lot of people. -Paul
[2021-04-02 14:32:31] - and this is in contrast to more metered opinions like if someone instead states, "if you compare trump's early response to the coronavirus outbreaks with similar outbreaks like H5N1 and SARS, he was actually more cautious than previous administrations" and i'd think, hmm, really? is that true? well that's interesting. and that might eventually sway me if it were echoed enough - aaron
[2021-04-02 14:31:10] - a: Thanks! I updated the spreadsheet. Wasn't as hard as I thought! -Paul
[2021-04-02 14:30:05] - and on the opposite side, if i hear "donald trump singlehandedly prevented the coronavirus outbreak from being a national disaster" i'll think... well, really? it still seems like kind of a national disaster. and if i hear that 1,000 times i'll also lean more and more towards opposing that viewpoint - aaron
[2021-04-02 14:29:09] - this applies to both politics and consumer goods equally. if someone expresses, "donald trump is literally the single most harmful political figure in american history" i'll think, really? ALL of them? donald trump wasn't THAT bad. and if i hear it 1,000 times i'll probably have a more positive opinion of trump - aaron
[2021-04-02 14:27:47] - daniel: with regards to hyperbole not affecting my opinions, it's sort of like 'foot in the door' versus 'door in the face' negotiation tactics. if i hear something bafflingly unreasonable, it pushes my opinion further in the opposite direction - aaron
[2021-04-02 13:06:45] - paul: I sent you a text with how I did this. set mid point "number" to zero and use the red to white to green color option. ~a
[2021-04-01 21:09:36] - Daniel: Because I could not anticipate negative numbers!
Um... because Google sheets isn't great with conditional formatting (or I am bad at using it) and it wasn't easy to make it work the way it makes sense (where negative is red and positive is green). I can try to fix it, though. -Paul[2021-04-01 20:19:51] - Paul: random question but on the fantasy investing spreadsheet how come you have the gradient for the performance column go from white to dark green instead of red to green? -Daniel
[2021-04-01 13:48:11] - a: Losing does not put me in a good mood.
-Paul[2021-04-01 13:42:53] - paul: we should play some 1v1 some time. that'll improve your mood. ~a
[2021-04-01 13:42:33] - Daniel: I've been watching Vibe and trying to mimic, but I got crushed by somebody who basically medivac dropped me into oblivion and then a zerg who basically steamrolled me (I know this is heresy, but I think I lost that because of micro). -Paul
[2021-04-01 13:41:28] - Daniel: I had to get up to drop something off at 8am, and I didn't want to start work yet, so I got some games in. -Paul
[2021-04-01 13:34:15] - Also if you already played another five games this morning that means you got up earlier than you needed which is bonkers. -Daniel
[2021-04-01 13:33:52] - Vibe isn't the be all end all but I think he can definitely get you past silver. Plus also there are weird things with the promo's right now (based on watching Vibe on twitch) so might be worth just looking at your MMR to see what it is and not your actual league. -Daniel
[2021-04-01 13:29:36] - God I suck at Starcraft. Played 5 games this morning to see if I could get a true test of my level and I'm still at silver. Maybe that's just what I am.
-Paul[2021-03-31 21:35:53] - gotcha, yeah. i'll probably get on a plane soon. like, probably soon after i have the vaccine. ~a
[2021-03-31 21:34:55] - a: Technically yes. There isn't zero risk and I don't know specifically how planes compare to restaurants just that planes haven't been quite the death trap many initially imagined. -Daniel
[2021-03-31 21:25:30] - daniel: "because of a plane's filtration systems, your risk of catching the coronavirus on a flight comes almost entirely from the people sitting around you" so then your link agrees with me?
~a[2021-03-31 21:04:28] - https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/10/20/925892185/do-masks-really-cut-your-risk-of-catching-covid-19-on-long-plane-flights -Daniel
[2021-03-31 20:39:51] - a: Yeah, I would think flights would be the worst, but apparently they aren't? Maybe it's for the reasons Daniel said. I have no idea. But it seems to fly (pun intended) in the face of the whole enclosed area and 6 feet apart deal. -Paul
[2021-03-31 19:55:15] - . . . getting on a plane. ~a
[2021-03-31 19:55:03] - i always felt like i was catching a cold during non-pandemic times. ~a
[2021-03-31 19:50:57] - i can't imagine airplanes aren't a thousand times worse than a restaurant. ~a
[2021-03-31 19:50:22] - daniel: huh? do you have a link on that??? aren't you sitting 6 feet away from like three dozen people? ~a
[2021-03-31 19:48:17] - Paul: I'm not 100% but I think the theory on flights is that they already have pretty heavy duty air filters in place to try and deal with air issues already. Restaurants don't I believe. -Daniel
[2021-03-31 19:45:55] - a: That's unclear to me. I've seen people claim that kids don't seem to spread it much, but obviously that could 100% be hearsay. It's a little strange to me how little we still seem to know about how it spreads and whatnot. Like, how are flights supposedly not super dangerous but indoor restaurants are? Why do lockdowns not seem to be terribly correlated with spreading? -Paul
[2021-03-31 19:41:18] - paul: children become adults. i'll be honest, i'm not fully versed in the dangers *from* kids. they can give it to adults, right? they can be tiny little manslaughterers? ~a
[2021-03-31 19:33:32] - a: So, you feel pretty strongly about kids needing to be vaccinated too, even though the danger to them from COVID seems almost vanishingly small? -Paul
[2021-03-31 19:30:43] - i'm hoping, and praying, that states will change their laws for covid. ~a
[2021-03-31 19:29:15] - paul: big oooof. read the "**" for virginia. it seems like its not as bad in the commonwealth as the map suggests. ~a
[2021-03-31 19:26:41] - I bring it up because I think a mostly unspoken correlation is that hesitation to vaccinate seems to overlap a lot with certain ethnic groups and that could be an uncomfortable thing to try to focus on. -Paul
[2021-03-31 19:26:33] - paul: like i mentioned, there are grey areas: there's an ocean of choices between "i refuse to vaccinate my kids or wear a mask. ever" and "i don't want to be a guinea pig" ~a
[2021-03-31 19:24:35] - a: "well that's a dumb question, of course not" Ha! I'm actually surprised to hear you say that. This feels like one of those areas where we're strangely almost reversed. I'm not sure if, in a practical sense, it makes a difference to me, but I can understand being much more sympathetic to blacks who might be suspicious and hesitant. -Paul
[2021-03-31 19:21:42] - paul: that grey area includes details like: exactly when you decide to get vaccinated, and if you decide to quarantine instead, and other stuff like that. all grey areas. i'd be comfortable accepting someone else's hesitancy if its . . . partial? on the other hand, the hardliners: the people who refuse to wear a mask or vaccinate, and still want to board planes and eat at restaurants etc, years from now, that's less of a grey area. ~a
[2021-03-31 19:19:44] - paul: well that's a dumb question, of course not. i'll answer the other one instead. regardless of how many of them there are, my thought is that they're making a personal decision that will have a very large chance of killing other people. it is much worse than a DUI, in that way (the chance of an antivaxer killing others is much higher than the chance of a DUIer killing others). OTOH, i think there's a huge grey area in antivax. ~a
[2021-03-31 19:15:49] - a: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lebron-james-covid19-vaccine-decision/ Does your opinion on anti-vaxxers depend on their race? -Paul
[2021-03-31 19:14:18] - a: I'm not sure I understand the DUI analogy. I guess the thinking being that the more there are, the bigger the chance of somebody else getting hurt? -Paul
[2021-03-31 19:02:17] - paul: i'm guessing you'll say no, but i'll ask. do you agree with a DUI analogy? ~a
[2021-03-31 19:01:12] - paul: i have a feeling, that once they realize they can't board regional flights, and that they'll have to homeschool their kids, we'll see their numbers dwindle. so, nbd. but if airlines or schools decide to cater to them, we're all fucked. many of us here will die. so much gloom and doom. ~a
[2021-03-31 18:58:46] - paul: hmmm, along the same lines as DUI drivers? it probably depends on how many of them there ends up being? if there's, like 0.1% or 1% of them, i don't care. if they end up being, fucking, 30%, that'll be a different story altogether: DUI drivers. i hope schools keep their kids out, and airlines won't let them board. ~a
[2021-03-31 18:53:52] - a: So, that brings up an interesting question I had: What is your general thought about people who are hesitant to get vaccinated for COVID? Disdain? Sympathy? Something else? -Paul
[2021-03-31 18:51:31] - i predict the antivaxers and the "vaccines cause autism" crowd will get really loud by year end. ~a
[2021-03-31 18:45:41] - daniel: congratulations! or boo, now you have autism, depending on your politics. ~a
[2021-03-31 18:34:35] - I think there's a difference between emotional appeals and hyperbole when it comes to brands like Honda and McDonalds and hyperbole when it comes to politics. I think most people are much more tribal and fiercely loyal to their political tribe than they are to their favorite fast food restaurant or car manufacturer. -Paul
[2021-03-31 18:33:03] - Daniel: Congrats! -Paul
[2021-03-31 18:10:06] - Also randomly got my first shot today. Woo. -Daniel
[2021-03-31 18:09:36] - "If you eat McDonalds for a month you will get heart disease and get fat" which have no impact - do they have NO impact? I think they don't make you change your mind in the moment but over time you might start associating the two concepts (fat & McD's). I don't think its 100% or anything and maybe is different for different people but I'm not sure its 0 impact long term across the board. -Daniel
[2021-03-31 18:00:33] - there's a difference between hyperbole like "If you eat McDonalds for a month you will get heart disease and get fat" which have no impact, and gentler "McDonalds supports factory farming and drives mom-and-pop restaurants out of business" sort of messages which have an impact - aaron
[2021-03-31 17:58:32] - i agree with the idea of "agreement through familiarity" or whatever where if i see 200 commercials explaining that taco bell is healthy, i'll bend towards that direction a bit. but by contrast, stuff like Super Size Me just cements my preconceived notions - aaron
[2021-03-31 17:52:09] - Daniel: Ah, I misunderstood your point. I thought you were arguing for the efficacy of hyperbole. You are arguing for... appeals to emotion? -Paul
[2021-03-31 17:48:09] - Paul: ? I don't think Honda makes holocaust comparisons or even that Honda uses hyperbole (though I'm sure some ads do) but I think the effect is similar is that some element of positive or negative association sinks in over time for a thing / concept. -Daniel
[2021-03-31 17:43:10] - Daniel: What would hyperbole be for a Honda ad? Buy Honda, because Toyota will gas your relatives?
-Paul[2021-03-31 17:06:52] - " I'm generally not a fan of hyperbole if you're trying to change minds on an issue. If that's what they're trying to do, I think it is ineffective. " - I'm not sure I agree. I think its probably like advertising where it doesn't make you love Honda right off the bat or anything but ads over time when you do start to think about it you are starting from a place where Honda's are already good in your head. -Daniel
[2021-03-31 16:40:58] - I don't know the full story behind Gina Carano. I'm sure she's said some objectionable things. But the thing she was fired for was for comparing persecution of conservatives to persecution of Jews by Nazis (the Nazis were the bad guys in that analogy). Dumb comparison? Sure, but a dumb comparison doesn't make somebody a Nazi. That's beyond ridiculous. -Paul
[2021-03-31 16:38:38] - https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/30/former-sen-heidi-heitkamp-viciously-slanders-gina-carano-as-nazi-who-hangs-with-white-supremacists/ I'm more annoyed at things like this. Here's a former senator on a show where the point is to discuss political topics in presumably a bit of depth and instead all she wants to do is flippantly label somebody a Nazi (and joke about it being defamation) and then follow up with "we have to be careful". -Paul
[2021-03-31 16:33:26] - aaron: Yeah, I agree. Not effective at changing minds. Not effective at being level-headed. Effective at getting likes and retweets and replies. -Paul
[2021-03-31 16:32:36] - a: I'm against the idea of a vaccine passport as I've understood it (ie, not just something for international travel). The Nazi comparison seems a bit lazy, but I feel like ever since Office Space had their "pieces of flair" line regarding Nazis, the go-to flippant comparison for things you don't like is referring to Nazis in that way. -Paul
[2021-03-31 16:24:14] - (to be clear, my statements were in reference to the 'yellow star' tweet) - aaron
[2021-03-31 16:20:57] - so if your goal is making headlines or getting a lot of people to notice you, then i think they're effective. (this is on twitter, so yes, i think it is an effective tweet.) if your goal is actually provoking thought or promoting an agenda then... maybe it's effective? if your goal is to radicalize people in both directions - aaron
[2021-03-31 16:20:05] - also to me, statements like that feel like they just polarize moderate people towards both extremes. an antivax moderate sees it and thinks, "hmm, maybe joe biden is just like hitler!" and a pro-vax moderate thinks, "hmm, maybe all antivax people equate preventative medicine with the holocaust!" - aaron
[2021-03-31 16:16:53] - https://blog.cy.md/2021/03/24/solving-xkcd-1683/ someone trained a neural network to detect how compressed an image is - aaron
[2021-03-31 15:47:54] - ok, cool. yay, we're all on the same page there. to answer some questions: yes, paul i was referring to the godwin's law thing. it seemed to be a classic "apples and oranges" situation. i have distress because, this isn't a slippery slope, and vaccine reports have always been historically tied to international travel: if its a nazi thing now, why wasn't it a nazi thing before? ~a
[2021-03-31 15:40:12] - a: it is probably not effective. - mig
[2021-03-31 15:34:34] - a: I'm generally not a fan of hyperbole if you're trying to change minds on an issue. If that's what they're trying to do, I think it is ineffective. At the same time, it's a one sentence tweet and I don't want to read too much into it. Tweets can sometimes be shot off flippantly as a joke or for shock value or to just try to go viral. Is it good and/or right? Maybe not. But I would give more credence to longer form stuff than tweets. -Paul
[2021-03-31 14:30:34] - paul/mig: accurate or simple, i guess i don't care. do you think this political messaging is effective? (and i do not) ~a
[2021-03-31 13:02:25] - mig: Sure, that's probably more accurate. Might not have been as easy to simply state. I'm guessing there's a rule with political messaging to keep it simple over prioritizing accuracy. -Paul
[2021-03-31 12:48:56] - paul: if you were going this route, it would make more sense if you were talking about putting a gold star on the unvaccinated. - mig
[2021-03-31 12:39:02] - a: The Godwin's law way of expressing it? -Paul
[2021-03-31 12:38:36] - a: The opposition to vaccine passports? I think it's safe to say that more libertarians are against the idea of vaccine passports than are for them. Why is that distressing? -Paul
[2021-03-31 12:37:46] - a: (1) Yes, they accept bitcoin. (2) I knew of the PayPal thing, but now when it went into effect (did you see this? https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/31/bitcoin-goldman-is-close-to-offering-bitcoin-to-its-richest-clients.html ) -Paul
[2021-03-31 12:36:48] - as an aisde, the state lp's tweet doesn't make very much sense, even if you aren't fond of vaccine passports (and I'm not). - mig
[2021-03-31 12:28:11] - a: a state party, not the main, so probably not. Certainly not a good look, but maybe not as bad about talking about immigrants being held in concentration camps, and then suddenly muting those comparisons when the next guy puts immigrants in similar conditions. - mig
[2021-03-31 03:41:41] - please tell me this doesn't represent the libertarian party ~a
[2021-03-30 19:15:51] - paul: i assume you saw the paypal bitcoin thing went into effect today, yah? ~a
[2021-03-30 18:39:17] - https://my.lp.org/contribute/bitcoin/ . . . ~a
[2021-03-30 18:38:50] - paul: do they accept bitcoin? ~a
[2021-03-30 18:38:30] - a: Speaking of btc, I just got mail from the Libertarian Party basically saying: "Hey, if you happen to have huge bitcoin riches... why not consider a donation to the LP?" -Paul
[2021-03-30 16:58:05] - Although, man, what a harsh campaign considering: "As part of the campaign, Chipotle is partnering with Stefan Thomas, the San Francisco man who famously lost $220 million worth of bitcoin because he couldn't remember the password to his digital wallet." -Paul
[2021-03-30 16:57:28] - https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/30/business/chipotle-bitcoin-contest/index.html Even chipotle is getting into the craze. -Paul
[2021-03-30 15:30:06] - daniel: "tax bill of $800,000 despite only making $45,000 in net trading profits" ooooof. yeah, this is uncommon, but totally possible. basically any situation you have a big unrealized loss paired with a realized gain. its another reason why my "play" money ironically is all in my ira/401k: i'm just sick of having to worry about taxes
~a[2021-03-30 15:19:34] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaharziv/2021/03/26/robinhood-trader-may-face-800000-tax-bill/?sh=7ef0c4d667c7 in the same vein as confusing tax rules. Yikes! -Daniel
[2021-03-30 14:53:03] - paul: remember when 1099-B wasn't required to show you your cost-basis? things could be so much worse. ~a
[2021-03-30 14:52:18] - paul: yeah the fact that cryptocurrency exchanges aren't required to send us a 1099-B is kinda weird. you're going to tax it just like an equity, but then you aren't going to give me the same information? seems dumb, but maybe its a privacy issue? ~a
[2021-03-30 14:48:57] - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-26/how-can-i-lower-my-taxes-on-bitcoin Kind of related, but it annoys me to no end how incredibly complicated taxes are (not just for bitcoin). -Paul
[2021-03-30 14:24:20] - epic bus. really funny bus commercial from 2015. skip to the end if you don't want to watch the whole thing. the ending made me laugh, even though you can totally see it coming. ~a
[2021-03-29 21:21:11] - daniel: i tried to find confirmation of this on irs.gov and only got fucking confused, so you might want to ignore everything i said previously. i've been reporting this kind of thing on my 1040 schedule D (the thing that 1099-B feeds into), but maybe that's wrong. ~a
[2021-03-29 21:01:29] - daniel: its (similar to, or just is i'm not sure) a barter transaction. barter transactions are taxed. it counts as a taxable event. you are required to consider the (usd) "value" of the two things being traded for the purposes of sales tax and capital gains. ~a
[2021-03-29 20:59:42] - how does buying a tesla with bitcoin work for taxes? Does it count as a taxable sale of bitcoin to USD? Or does that only trigger if you go straight from bitcoin to USD via exchange or whatever? -Daniel
[2021-03-29 20:45:08] - paul: i noticed you didn't mention paypal/venmo or coinbase or that teslas are going to be purchasable in bitcoin (and that tesla is running their own nodes. and keeping payments in the original currency). i can't believe all of the recent bitcoin news. ~a
[2021-03-29 20:22:11] - paul: yeah, i gotcha. sometimes bitcoin doesn't move right away on good news? i think this is pretty normal though. there's like a "buildup" that doesn't tip scales right away? i think this can be the case for a lot of other markets too. ~a
[2021-03-29 20:20:13] - a: There's been a few pieces of news, but the Morgan Stanley thing https://bitcoinmagazine.com/markets/morgan-stanley-set-to-offer-clients-access-to-bitcoin-funds and Visa seems to be warming up to Crypto generally (although not necessarily btc specifically) https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210329005171/en/Visa-Becomes-First-Major-Payments-Network-to-Settle-Transactions-in-USD-Coin-USDC -Paul
[2021-03-29 19:30:02] - paul: "because it would otherwise be rising". which news are you referring to? it has been a crazy week. ~a
[2021-03-29 19:23:54] - a: Hence why its recent relative stability is bonkers to me. Can't tell if that means it is maturing some as a store of value or because it would otherwise be rising... -Paul
[2021-03-29 19:04:36] - yah, agreed it has been fairly "flat" in 2021. in general, though, bitcoin isn't exactly stable. went down 60% in 2014 and 70% in 2018.
~a[2021-03-29 18:48:51] - a: Bonkers how bitcoin has been the most stable aspect of my portfolio (assuming you count it as part of my portfolio, which I typically do not) over the past few weeks.
Makes me wonder if it would be hugely up if it weren't for the market craziness. -Paul[2021-03-29 03:56:57] - It reminds me a lot of late 2018 (when I started PvtM) and my portfolio got crushed after a big run in the years leading up to it. Those companies eventually rebounded, and I suspect the same will happen here. I see it as a buying opportunity personally. -Paul
[2021-03-29 02:44:47] - I think Adrian is right. Lots of people went with tech or "growth" stocks that had some lofty valuations. Those have largely gotten crushed the past month or so as people have fled to "safer" re-opening type names. -Paul
[2021-03-27 02:20:10] - Daniel: vgt, year to date has had negative return, and mostly we pick tech stocks? I think it'll change by the halfway mark unless there is a major drop. ~a
[2021-03-26 19:28:49] - Is there some reason why the stock challenge didn't go well for so many this year? Just early and things will even out? Just seems like a lot of negative - more so than normal. More players? -Daniel
[2021-03-26 17:06:30] - Defensive gun use is definitely an area where I can feel my bubble. I have a hard time fathoming needing a gun for defense in the neighborhoods and environments I have grown up in. At the same time, I can easily see how somebody living in a dangerous city or out in the wilderness could want one to defend against criminals or animals respectively. -Paul
[2021-03-26 17:05:09] - mig: I do think that lots of people (not necessarily here, but in general) assume that defensive gun use is incredibly rare and is basically not worth considering. I don't know how common it is (not sure if anybody does), but I do feel like most evidence points to it being big enough to at least consider as a trade-off. I wish there was better data on it. -Paul
[2021-03-26 17:01:32] - a: And I have had similar experience where I can vociferously argue the "other side" than what I argue here since the other person is on the opposite fringe and I am in the middle. So, like, I think I have the rep here of being hostile to voting rights (or at least apathetic), but I'll argue all day about how that new Georgia law is bonkers. -Paul
[2021-03-26 16:59:56] - a: "my position is almost always about the same, but paul and my dad are like such polar opposites" I totally get that, and it's why I try to comment every once in awhile that I think we all probably agree a lot more than we realize. We tend to obsess over the issues (and sometimes minutia) where we disagree and not discuss the lots of areas where we agree. -Paul
[2021-03-26 15:48:56] - mig: hunting is definitely not my thing, but generally cool, safe, and positive, etc. hunting on non-private land should be licensed, in my opinion, though. ~a
[2021-03-25 22:12:24] - mig: "acting like guns have no positive benefits is kind of disingenuous" where did i do that? i technically said "little upside", which i think it has. i don't think i'd say "no upside" or "no positive benefits". i'm a big fan of target shooting, and i have been protected by people with guns in a war zone before. ~a
[2021-03-25 21:14:04] - we can maybe debate the merit of the people using guns for self defense vs frequency of mass shootings, but acting like guns have no positive benefits is kind of disingenuous. - mig
[2021-03-25 21:11:16] - a: https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15 “defensive use of guns”. - mig
[2021-03-25 19:06:53] - its weird having conversations here, while i'm having a conversation with my dad over sms. i'm always arguing the opposite side of every debate. my position is almost always about the same, but paul and my dad are like such polar opposites. though, on the other hand, when i think about the shit people say on twitter/facebook, it really could be much worse: paul or my dad could be arguing for abstinence only sex education, etc. ~a
[2021-03-25 18:27:00] - "So what other possibilities are there?" License use, require liability insurance, test new users. All stuff we do with cars, all stuff that works in other countries. ~a
[2021-03-25 18:17:10] - It's almost like asking me to craft a policy which prevents people from getting struck by lightning (about the same number of people a year are killed by lightning strikes as they are by mass shooters). -Paul
[2021-03-25 18:14:27] - So what other possibilities are there? Jailing all mentally unstable people? That seems extreme. Metal detectors at every street corner? Bullet-proof vests required for everybody? I'm not trying to be silly, but when we're talking about identifying a needle in a haystack and preventing that needle from hurting people... I don't know what else might work. -Paul
[2021-03-25 18:12:29] - And that completely removes any of the ways that guns could help people, like the woman needing protection from her jealous ex-boyfriend or a farmer dealing with coyotes or whatever. -Paul
[2021-03-25 18:11:23] - The only solutions I can think of that might work are pretty impractical AND would have a lot of bad trade-offs as well. The obvious being an outright ban of all guns in the US. Even beyond being politically impractical, it feels impossible to implement. The war on drugs hasn't been able to keep drugs out. -Paul
[2021-03-25 18:08:57] - Daniel: "I'm curious if there is literally anything you would support" Maybe? Probably? I'm still confused why I, the person saying that it's a really difficult problem with no clear solution is the one who is supposed to come up with a solution. I'm not sure what to tell you. I reject the idea that I need to have the perfect solution to all of life's problems.
-Paul[2021-03-25 18:03:53] - Daniel: "I guess based on the last statement it seems like you think its not worth solving" Huh? The statement where I compared it to terrorist bombings makes you think that I think it's not worth solving? I'm not sure how I gave that impression. -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:58:17] - I guess based on the last statement it seems like you think its not worth solving which I think is something a lot of people would disagree with. I guess the "worth" is the key part and what one would have to give up in order to 'solve' it and what that would be 'worth'. -Daniel
[2021-03-25 17:56:42] - Paul: You are the one who always says things won't work so I'm curious if there is literally anything you would support. So I guess I'm less interested in offering ideas for you to shoot down than seeing if there is literally anything constructive you think could work. -Daniel
[2021-03-25 17:54:32] - Daniel: Can you think of any rules you would support that would deal with terrorist bombings? -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:54:05] - Daniel: "specifically for rules that would help deal with mass shootings do you know of any that you would support" Not really. Do you have any that you think would work? I like the analogy of trying to prevent mass shootings to trying to prevent terrorist bombings. They're both relatively rare events that are really hard to predict. -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:52:17] - a: I get that you don't like guns and think of them differently from other things, but it's still a constitutional right. What if we didn't let depressed people vote? I imagine that would be a pretty big deal, no? Or people on anti-depressants weren't allowed free speech. Or people who see therapists have to house soldiers.
-Paul[2021-03-25 17:52:14] - Paul: I understand your point about gun deaths being a larger issue but I specifically for rules that would help deal with mass shootings do you know of any that you would support? Or do think no such rule exists? -Daniel
[2021-03-25 17:50:27] - a: Guns can protect somebody from a jealous ex-boyfriend or a stalker. Also, you mention alcohol and tobacco only harm the user, but isn't that what we're talking about here? Suicide? -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:25:44] - paul: it dosn't really seem unfair to me, no. it's like there is a huge downside, and little upside. cars help you get to work, and transport goods. alcohol and tobacco (generally, i know about DUIs and second hand smoke) only harm the user. guns harm lots of people, almost as much as cars, and guns don't help you get to work or transport goods. ~a
[2021-03-25 17:23:40] - Part of the problem is that plenty of people suffer from depression or see a therapist, and only a small fraction actually kill themselves and I don't believe we have a good way of identifying the ones who are most likely to kill themselves. -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:18:55] - a: Even the lightest of restrictions still seems a little unfair, right? Like would we consider not letting depressed people drive? Or restrict prescriptions they can purchase? Or lengths of rope? -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:18:35] - paul: liability insurance won't help with suicides but it will help with homicides (which is about even with suicides). ~a
[2021-03-25 17:18:00] - a: Of course. So are we talking longer waiting periods for people who see a therapist or who suffer from depression? Or better tracking? A test? -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:16:45] - a: Re: Licensing and registration: Sure, I guess it depends on the nuances. I'm sure the states (and federal government in general) don't go as far as you would like. At the same time, I think it's fair to say that in many states a lot more information is collected on gun purchases than it is for most other purchases. -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:16:31] - paul: "without unreasonably restricting their rights?" TOTALLY depends on your definition of "unreasonably". i don't think my car rights are unreasonably restricted. but i do have to get a license (which i don't have to do with a gun) and get liability insurance (which i don't have to do with a gun) and take a test (which i don't have to do with a gun). ~a
[2021-03-25 17:15:21] - a: But the devil is in the details, right? What practical law can you pass which would help keep guns away from suicidal people without unreasonably restricting their rights? If somebody sees a therapist and suffers from depression.... does that mean they lose a constitutional right? -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:14:16] - a: "I think the majority will find another way" Yes! I absolutely agree with you on this. Suicides are a huge percent of gun deaths and it is an area where the data shows that gun availability might have a significant impact in preventing suicides. But the argument for restricting gun ownership is almost always used in the shadow of mass shootings and as a way to prevent them (which I don't think would be that effective). -Paul
[2021-03-25 17:14:06] - paul: "TWO" states is actually closer to four or five if you take the union of the "purchase" and "ownership" laws. https://mk0brilliantmaptxoqs.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/buy-a-gun.png . . . i've checked against wikipedia and this map is generally correct, but its kinda hard to see the color of connecticut and massachusettes etc. ~a
[2021-03-25 17:05:20] - paul: "I think the majority will find another way" the data doesn't agree with your thoughts on this. link ~a
[2021-03-25 17:02:01] - paul: "At the state level, sure." no, not really. "We also license gun dealers and gun owners, right?" dealers, yes. owners, generally no (you might be confusing "ownership" with "purchase"? but even then you're still confused, i think). you aren't required to have a license for ownership except in TWO states, and one of those its even only for certain kinds of guns. ~a
[2021-03-25 16:59:07] - What motivates people to commit the majority of homicides? Is it gang violence? Domestic violence? Drug dealers fighting over turf? Poverty? Something else? -Paul
[2021-03-25 16:58:14] - But another problem I think is the focus on the "gun" part everywhere. I don't think people hell-bent on killing others are magically going to no longer want to kill because a gun isn't available. I think the majority will find another way. I think the most effective solutions are addressing the root causes and not the very last step. -Paul
[2021-03-25 16:56:44] - Part of the problem is the obsession over "mass shootings", which are a tiny percent of gun deaths and ignoring the more mundane homicides and suicides that happen every day but don't make the news. -Paul
[2021-03-25 16:55:40] - I think you two have this weird idea that I am against gun laws on principle. I am not. I do believe the second amendment is important, but if a gun law would actually do some good, I'm all for considering it. The problem is that the VAST majority of the time I believe the proposed gun laws wouldn't have made a difference. -Paul
[2021-03-25 16:53:59] - Daniel: "Are there any new gun rules you would support that you think would do something?" I mean, a lot of rules would do SOMETHING. An outright nationwide ban would maybe cut gun deaths over the long term.... assuming it didn't ignite a full on revolution or civil war (only half joking). Also, does it have to be gun rules? I think ending the war on drugs would go a long way to cutting gun deaths. -Paul
[2021-03-25 16:51:42] - a: "we require gun registration?" At the state level, sure. We also license gun dealers and gun owners, right? -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:24:07] - paul: not sure how accurate this map is, but i'm pretty sure we don't require any sort of license or anything like that. do you think a license might work here? it seems to be working in those other places in grey on that map? ~a
[2021-03-25 15:24:05] - "mass shootings" (however you want to define them) - NPR had some expert guy on who defined them as four or more people shot in the same incident. -Daniel
[2021-03-25 15:22:40] - paul: "why not the extreme step of banning cars?" haha, yes please. seriously though, instead, i think we could require a license before you can drive? maybe we could require liability insurance for driving a car? possibly require people to take a test before they can drive? ~a
[2021-03-25 15:22:20] - Paul: Are there any new gun rules you would support that you think would do something? Or do you think nothing would help therefore all new rules are bad? -Daniel
[2021-03-25 15:21:31] - paul: we require gun registration? ~a
[2021-03-25 15:19:51] - I can't remember where auto deaths are vs gun deaths in the US, but I think they're roughly on the same level, so why not the extreme step of banning cars? I have a hard time imagining even an anti-car person like you would seriously advocate for that (or at least you can see why it would be very difficult to enact). -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:18:01] - a: It's also worth noting that we're not quite at 1000 mass shootings a second yet. That was the other side of the argument, right? How big of a problem is it? Mass shootings are still fairly uncommon. Gun deaths are high, but those are often VERY different circumstances where the only thing they have in common is the method of death. -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:16:49] - a: "license the use of bombmaking materials" Okay... so what's your proposal? We already require gun registration, which seems like the close analogy. I'm not sure what gun making materials would be. -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:10:15] - gun rights are no longer civil rights. ~a
[2021-03-25 15:09:36] - the status quo isn't working. ~a
[2021-03-25 15:08:51] - paul: "if a solution solves a problem which only kills one person every thousand years... I would support it" right, but i feel like we're at the point where we need to try "weird" and otherwise "unorthodox" solutions that we wouldn't need to support if we were only losing one person every thousand years. ~a
[2021-03-25 15:07:59] - "that's a stupid idea regardless of how urgent the problem is, no?" yes that's a great analogy, i love it. so if there were 1000 bombings per second by white supremacists and we said ban the muslims, that would be dumb i agree. so instead, lets . . . license the use of bombmaking materials? i mean, in normal times that would be crazy, but in the 1000 bombings per second, maybe licencing the raw materials to make bombs makes sense? ~a
[2021-03-25 15:07:24] - a: Likewise, if a solution solves a problem which only kills one person every thousand years... I would support it. -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:06:09] - optimizing for non-mass-shootings is fine with me. i think solving regular gun deaths is a fine goal to have. ~a
[2021-03-25 15:05:37] - a: "would you consider taking a different tack" Um... I mean, I guess I would reconsider, but if it seems like something isn't going to work (and/or would make things worse), then that seems pretty independent of how big the problem is, right? Like, if there were 1,000 bombings per second by domestic white supremacists and my response was "ban the Muslims!" that's a stupid idea regardless of how urgent the problem is, no? -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:03:27] - a: "i have no idea what teladoc is" Teladoc is telemedicine, so you are talking to a real person but remotely over the phone. It's more complicated than that, and it is also branching into other things like continuous health monitoring with Livongo, but that's the majority of what it is now. -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:02:26] - undersood, of course that makes sense. but is there a "point" where you consider: maybe my current thoughts on what could be effective at stopping mass shootings is just wrong? or, we've reached the point where maybe we should try another approach? if there were 1000 mass shootings per second, would you consider taking a different tack than your current one of "that probably won't work"? ~a
[2021-03-25 15:02:24] - a: But if number of mass shootings is important to you, feel free to compare number of gun deaths to "mass shootings" (however you want to define them) over the past week to number of gun deaths due to homicides and suicides and tell me if you still think we should optimize laws for mass shootings. -Paul
[2021-03-25 15:00:09] - a: "is there a number of mass-shootings per week that will get paul to change his thoughts on gun policies" My thoughts on gun policies isn't about how many mass shootings there are. My thoughts on gun policies is "how effective would they be in stopping mass shootings?" -Paul
[2021-03-25 13:14:32] - paul: i have no idea what teladoc is. i know its not AI doctors, but i imagine AI doctors, ok? so when i read this tweet, i think of teladoc. ~a
[2021-03-25 00:53:41] - its crazy to me that the atlanta shooting isn't even the most recent mass-shooting in the united states. wtf. is there a number of mass-shootings per week that will get paul to change his thoughts on gun policies? if we get to 7 mass shootings per week, does your opinion on what should change change? if not, how about 7 mass shootings per day? ~a
[2021-03-24 20:04:43] - a: My point is more along the lines of: If he wanted to shoot up a location, for any reason, it has to be someplace he knows. You don't just drive to some random place you've never been because it might be an empty farm or something. A nightclub likely is one of the most crowded places he knew. -Paul
[2021-03-24 20:03:20] - a: "it seems, weird, right" I mean, wanting to shoot up ANY innocent people seems weird to me. It's hard to get into the mindset of if you would rather kill strangers or people you know. Lots of violent crime happens between parties that know each other, though, right? -Paul
[2021-03-24 19:56:58] - it does seem weird to me. you go to a nightclub regularly, and you're like "these people. these are the ones i want to kill". it seems, weird, right? if its a nightclub you went to regularly, wouldn't you feel some sort of love for those people? whether it is a hate-crime, i kinda don't care. it just does seem like its *targeted* when you shoot up your "own" damn stomping ground. ~a
[2021-03-24 19:09:48] - a: Is it coincidence if a vegan shoots up a Whole Foods instead of Food Lion? No, I don't think so. -Paul
[2021-03-24 19:09:08] - a: "you don't think its a coincidence that he picked this place, right?" Coincidence? I don't know. Why a nightclub and not a grocery store? I think there's some coincidence to it. But why a gay nightclub? Because evidence suggests those might be the ones he visited and knew about. -Paul
[2021-03-24 19:07:28] - a: Nope, but I'm assuming if he frequented gay nightclubs, then maybe most of the nightclubs he went to were gay? -Paul
[2021-03-24 19:07:19] - paul: you don't think its a coincidence that he picked this place, right? or think its a coincidence that islamic fundamentalists hate gay people? the twin towers and the pentagon (and the white house?) weren't picked because they had a lot of people in them. they were picked because of it being the "seat" of our power. ~a
[2021-03-24 19:07:02] - I don't know how the minds of mass shooters work, but it seems like more work to look up a place you've never been before. How about a place where you know the layout and how crowded it gets? -Paul
[2021-03-24 19:06:59] - paul: you're assuming its the only night club he knew about? ~a
[2021-03-24 19:06:05] - a: It means if you are going to shoot up a nightclub... wouldn't it make sense that it would be one that you know exists because you visited? I mean, was he supposed to find some new nightclub to shoot up instead? -Paul
[2021-03-24 19:05:03] - a: It sounds like he had a lot of issues (threatening to kill somebody who allowed pork to touch a hamburger) but the closest he had to a history of anti-gay sentiment was "Mateen learned he may have been exposed to HIV from a Puerto Rican man with whom he had sex", but that seems to be from a single source and the theory was that it made him anti-Latino. -Paul
[2021-03-24 19:04:02] - that part i knew. so what? this means that it wasn't chosen because there were gay people there? ~a
[2021-03-24 19:03:18] - a: Check out the "Perpetrator" section of the wiki article: "At least four regular Pulse customers reported having seen Mateen visit the nightclub on no fewer than a dozen occasions." -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:55:27] - paul: "safe to say that an anti-gay motive was probably not a contributing factor" oof, i definitely wouldn't go that far. "that could be explained by him previously visiting the club" please elaborate on this part because this might be where we disagree. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:54:03] - Which, again, was surprising to me because an hour ago my memory had told me otherwise, that it was clearly anti-gay motivated violence. -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:53:31] - (that could be explained by him previously visiting the club), then I think it's safe to say that an anti-gay motive was probably not a contributing factor. -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:52:50] - Daniel: Okay, got it. I think we're in agreement (on the Pulse shooting, at least). And I just want to be clear that I don't think we can ever prove that anti-gay or anti-Asian motives weren't present. I just think that for something like pulse, when (to me) the shooter clearly presents a motive and there is seemingly no evidence supporting an anti-gay motive except the over-indexing of victims... -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:43:05] - Paul: Yes it suggest something else might be the case. Which is why I said cloudy. I was also on board with the possibility that ATL wasn't specifically racist either. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:42:33] - Paul: I think you are right that I'm reading the anti-gay part into it. I think thats a fair point. The three paragraphs talk about the possibility that he was gay. I'm connecting that to an religious / conservative Muslim upbringing possibly leading to an anti-gay stance. Which is this me reading between the lines. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:41:20] - Also, as an aside, it's striking how often when I read about these things that Facebook posts are mentioned as evidence. Somebody really needs to shut down that site that extremists are using to plan their violent acts.
-Paul[2021-03-24 18:40:31] - Daniel: "it certainly seems reasonable to investigate the possibility" Sure, but what if you investigate and find no evidence? I'm not saying it's proof that it's NOT something, but doesn't that seem to indicate maybe anti-Asian or anti-gay wasn't the motive? -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:39:07] - Daniel: What three paragraphs contradict that statement? I see a few trying to argue that he was gay, but none that argue he was anti-gay. -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:38:59] - paul: yeah what daniel said. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:38:36] - Paul: You definitely could have an attack on a group that wasn't motivated by animus towards that group. But if an attack on a group happens it certainly seems reasonable to investigate the possibility. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:38:14] - paul: i'm not sure we're communicating though, because i'm not convinced that mateen hates gay people, or if long hates asian people. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:37:45] - a: Yup, I hear what you're saying, but there's also evidence that he was familiar with that specific nightclub and frequented it (possibly because he was gay?). Wouldn't that be a reason he "randomly" chose a gay club? -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:37:31] - Its not perfect evidence and there is disagreement on the conclusion by FBI in the next paragraph so I wouldn't say its conclusive. But saying no evidence is weird. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:36:43] - I don't know if he was or not. Thats why I said cloudy. " there doesn't even seem to be any evidence it was anti-gay " There are like three paragraphs on the wiki article which contradict this statement? I'm confused. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:36:36] - paul: "do you think the shooter was gay?" no idea. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:36:33] - Or maybe a better question is: Would there be a way a mass shooting could over-index for a certain group and you WOULDN'T think it was motivated by animus towards that group? -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:35:58] - paul: here was my drafted message from earlier: its like the atlanta shooting. sure, *mayyyybe* he didn't care about whether the massage club was asian or not. what are the odds that mateen (the orlando guy) happened to find a place with mostly gay people in a town of hardly any gay people? yes, it's not 100% and not 0%. i agree that nobody should be saying for sure either way, but i do also think the statistics/odds matter. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:34:12] - Yup, yup. I think we all have the same thought here. For those who think it was anti-gay, do you think the shooter was gay? -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:33:54] - a: Sorry! -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:33:30] - a: "doubt" Right, I read that wiki article and thought, "Well, there doesn't even seem to be any evidence it was anti-gay and instead was politically motivated, but this also seems like a lot of people won't agree" -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:33:28] - daniel: "not...not...anti". i think you said it right, but i had to read that a bunch of times. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:32:47] - Paul: Yeah I was going to say its interesting how we read the same thing (wikipedia) and have different conclusions. I think his motive is cloudier but I'm not sure I would say probably not likely anti-gay. I think there is reasonable doubt to present against it being anti gay but there is also stuff there to support it. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:32:38] - lol i was just drafting a message that said basically that. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:32:25] - It seems remarkably similar to the Atlanta shooting in that the shooter himself claims a different motive, but people don't believe him because the victims over-indexed for a certain group. -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:31:05] - "probably not even likely anti-gay" doubt. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:30:38] - Daniel: Heh, spoiler tags are an interesting idea. I agree that the first person to respond kind of "ruins" it. Before looking on wikipedia, my memory told me it was a fairly obvious anti-gay hate crime. After reading wikipedia, I think that the motive is no longer "obvious" and probably not even likely anti-gay, but I was curious what others both remembered and thought after reading wikipedia. -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:26:00] - paul: otoh, islamic fundamentalists doing bad stuff to gay people isn't exactly off brand. ~a
[2021-03-24 18:24:51] - paul: i remember the pulse nightclub shooting. looks like daniel and aaron posted here about it, but nobody discussed it in detail. if you're asking us to use only our memories, i didn't remember the details: but i would NOT have said it was a "vanilla" hate crime. looking up stuff, it was a gay club, and the shooter was involved with (swore allegiance to?) abu bakr al-baghdadi and was mad about stuff happening in iraq and syria? ~a
[2021-03-24 18:24:24] - Paul: I didn't have his motive right right according to Wikipedia though it does seem cloudy some? Sort of? -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:21:23] - Paul: We need spoiler tags so we can answer without giving it away (or not) for others. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 18:14:50] - Here's a random question: Do you guys remember the pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando? If so, do you have a strong feeling about what the motive of the shooter was? -Paul
[2021-03-24 18:13:59] - a: "all stale jokes aside" Aw... that's all I have...
-Paul[2021-03-24 17:42:39] - i mean . . . all stale jokes aside, its refreshing that this story isn't at all about transgender issues. at least, the parts i've read. ~a
[2021-03-24 17:38:53] - yah. ~a
[2021-03-24 17:38:26] - a: Nope. I know nothing of it. I'm not a prolific reddit user. So is the takeaway now that the reddit community is transphobic and want to deny trans people the right to exist? (Kidding, in case it wasn't obvious). -Paul
[2021-03-24 16:17:31] - which does make me doubt i've seen the whole story. ~a
[2021-03-24 16:17:17] - like, based on her and her father's sordid history, why did reddit hire her? that seems like a weird decision. ~a
[2021-03-24 16:14:38] - yeah i saw that, and it does include (some of) the other side of the argument. ~a
[2021-03-24 16:12:31] - a: I hadn't. https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/mbzggv/why_has_r_gone_private/ has info as well. -Daniel
[2021-03-24 16:05:42] - have you guys heard of Aimee Challenor or the drama on reddit? if not, i won't try to summarize, because i'm not sure i've seen both sides of the story yet. here is one side of the story, but i'm not sure i understand it yet. ~a
[2021-03-24 14:34:30] - ok. ~a
[2021-03-24 14:33:41] - a: Also, I am apparently misrepresenting Duckworth's position here. I believe she DID say she would support a white person if they were LGBTQ, although I'm not sure if that makes it a more defensible position or not. This does go back to the Oppression Olympics discussion from before, though. I guess LGBTQ outweighs whiteness? -Paul
[2021-03-24 14:18:38] - paul: the 24 cabinet members is interesting (i know there was some discussion of "sub cabinet" in the original link). i think if you had zero asian americans in 24 people that would still be "close" to an even distribution (not hugely outside of a normal distribution). so, in other words, i'm mostly on your side here. ~a
[2021-03-24 14:16:42] - paul: nba positions usually have some physical constraints that are innately different between people of different racial backgrounds. the mental constraints on the cabinet positions don't have differences that show up between racial backgrounds. i like the early childhood development analogy much better, lets use that one. ~a
[2021-03-24 14:15:55] - paul: "I don't care if the percentage of cabinet positions are 0% Asian or 100% Asian" i do. "How is this not 'Asians only need apply'?" because it's not 0% or 100%. ~a
[2021-03-24 14:15:05] - a: But even still, whatever the numbers are is kind of irrelevant. I don't care if the percentage of cabinet positions are 0% Asian or 100% Asian, blatantly saying that you will not vote for a nominee unless they are a specific race seems pretty obviously racist to me. How is this not "Asians only need apply"? -Paul
[2021-03-24 14:12:45] - a: "you're confusing someone who wants everybody to be asian with someone who wants, like, one asian in a huge group of people" I am? How many cabinet members are there? 24? NBA rosters are 15 people. I feel like asking for one Asian among 15 isn't too different from asking for one Asian among 24. -Paul
[2021-03-24 14:11:25] - . . . and what with the vp having asian descent, i do kinda feel like duckworth is being an idiot. ~a
[2021-03-24 14:06:50] - paul: "In both examples you want somebody to have a job because they 'look like you' instead of any actual qualifications" you're confusing someone who wants everybody to be asian with someone who wants, like, one asian in a huge group of people. fwiw, i'll agree that america is *only* 6% asian, so, you have to have a pretty huge group of people, with zero asians, before its an unhealthy mix. ~a
[2021-03-24 14:03:06] - a: I believe my gp's have been: Hispanic, White, Southeast Asian (ironically enough). -Paul
[2021-03-24 14:02:08] - a: "shitty analogy" Disagree. Why does it matter if physical differences affect performance or mental differences or experiences? In both examples you want somebody to have a job because they "look like you" instead of any actual qualifications. -Paul
[2021-03-24 14:00:48] - paul: most of my life i've had a female gp. my current gp is asian. i wouldn't use the word "excited". ~a
[2021-03-24 14:00:06] - a: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/anhpivc.pdf This isn't where I saw it, but I believe this shows the same thing: "Asians had the lowest rate of violent victimization among all racial or ethnic groups." and "Asian males were at a slightly higher risk of violent victimization than Asian females." -Paul
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