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[2004-06-28 08:24:01] - http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007014.php Not sure if this is totally true or not, but it would be amusing if it were. -Paul
[2004-06-27 12:59:38] - http://www.tjhsstalumni.org/reunions.php five years. ~a
[2004-06-27 11:04:53] - why are they called "savings" accounts when you can't get anywhere near the inflation rate. every day your money is sitting in a savings account, you're losing money. they should call it a "losings" account. ~a
[2004-06-27 00:15:29] - http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040612/photos_od_afp/040612223046_6vsf86zu_photo0 Not safe for work. -Paul
[2004-06-26 17:19:14] - migaaron: I'm really sorry. both travis and paul said they weren't coming and I figured you two wouldn't come because the rain had been on and off that day
- vinnie[2004-06-26 14:11:46] - timmy - timmy
[2004-06-26 11:12:27] - Aaron: Sorry I missed it.
-Paul[2004-06-25 22:39:47] - paul: Miguel and i both showed up and played some one on one. - aaron
[2004-06-25 20:26:01] - Aaron: So people did show up to play? -Paul
[2004-06-25 19:12:08] - Paul: There was very very little rain. - aaron
[2004-06-25 17:14:44] - Ok, well, I guess I'm not going to show up so if anybody decides to go have fun. -Paul
[2004-06-25 17:04:52] - So are we meeting for basketball or not?
-Paul[2004-06-25 16:47:41] - Vinnie: Weren't you talking about going to the YMCA or something last time? -Paul
[2004-06-25 16:47:25] - Travis: Certification? That seems like a lot of trouble. -Paul
[2004-06-25 16:46:40] - if someone wants to put forth the effort you can go get some sort of certification that allows you to use public school courts - travis
[2004-06-25 16:44:52] - Vinnie: Thinking about calling it off? -Paul
[2004-06-25 16:23:09] - I was thinking that. I still haven't gotten around to looking into indoor places but I'll do it sometime. I promise - vinnie
[2004-06-25 16:18:59] - So unless we can find a place to play indoors or we don't mind playing in pouring rain, we might want to call it off today? -paul
[2004-06-25 16:17:22] - Reason I ask is because it's storming at home and I've heard it supposed to be storming all night in the area. -Paul
[2004-06-25 16:16:46] - Hey guys, are we meeting for basketball today? -Paul
[2004-06-25 14:14:48] - aaron: at the sydney games only - vinnie
[2004-06-25 14:14:04] - travis: that site has some huge problems. for one, there like a hundred zillion mortality stats - vinnie
[2004-06-25 14:11:27] - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/spo_oly_med_syd_200_cap The #1 gold medal-per-capita country has 1 gold medal per 50 billion people? That seems very very very low.... - aaron
[2004-06-25 13:35:34] - all you stat nazis might find this interesting http://www.nationmaster.com/ - travis
[2004-06-25 13:33:30] - vinnie: hmmm, that doesn't work with HTTP POST variables though, does it
Thanks for the link anyway, maybe I can get them to use GET variables for this demo in the interest of time. - pierce[2004-06-25 13:26:26] - http://www.cryer.co.uk/resources/javascript/script8.htm this one has the function written for you - vinnie
[2004-06-25 13:21:17] - pierce: i've never dealt with that myself, but I think location.search is the method you want http://www.devguru.com/technologies/ecmascript/quickref/location_search.html - vinnie
[2004-06-25 13:12:19] - no idea, Pierce.
-mel[2004-06-25 12:56:07] - aaron: yeah, i saw shrek 2 there - travis
[2004-06-25 12:55:25] - like, if I have http://ph0.org/page.html?var=value , can I use javascript to access "value" knowing only the name "var"? - pierce
[2004-06-25 12:53:31] - hey, does anyone know if/how Javascript can access the CGI parameters sent to a page? - pierce
[2004-06-25 12:30:00] - maybe i should read before posting crap. ~a
[2004-06-25 12:29:52] - oh, fairfax courner. dah. ~a
[2004-06-25 12:25:48] - travis: Monument drive - okay. So it's that big one where you guys saw Shrek 2 right? - aaron
[2004-06-25 11:47:53] - paul: do you have off today? if so then i'm leaving work in like 20 minutes so email me or something. ~a
[2004-06-25 11:47:30] - travis: my parents lived in fairfax station. it's near burke and it's near paul kind of. ~a=
[2004-06-25 11:42:28] - paul: that's bizarre. I cannot help you, my friend
- vinnie[2004-06-25 11:09:39] - Vinnie: Now I don't see a Firefox directory in my Mozilla directory.
-Paul[2004-06-25 11:09:20] - a: Turns out I didn't have it turned on (although I usually do). Must've been one of those options I forgot to change when I installed XP. -Paul
[2004-06-25 11:06:21] - Travis: I responded, didn't I? -Paul
[2004-06-25 11:01:47] - *80% chance - vinnie
[2004-06-25 11:01:30] - and check out the forecast! 80% of storms today! does that make like 5/6 now or something? - vinnie
[2004-06-25 11:00:58] - travis: fairfax corner, not station - vinnie
[2004-06-25 10:42:59] - aaron: the theater is at fairfax station(?), the one right off monument drive - travis
[2004-06-25 10:42:13] - pierce: debate the time with vinnie, he was the one that requested a time change, but only him and adrian responded to my first email - travis
[2004-06-25 10:16:21] - actually I'm gonna switch gears and do a U-turn and say that might be a hilarious movie - vinnie
[2004-06-25 10:15:41] - live-action?? osrighoasgsijgoijg - vinnie
[2004-06-25 10:02:19] - http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movies/06/25/film.speedracer.reut/index.html speed racer movie! - aaron
[2004-06-25 09:59:22] - travis: n/m, that actually turns out to be bad for me and lisa, we were planning to go to her aunt's for dinner. - pierce
[2004-06-25 09:58:09] - "Fox wanted an animated show to follow The Simpsons. At first I was thinking, 'Oh, God, what am I going to come up with to follow that?' Then I thought, 'I'm going to do what I really want to do, and if they say no, then I don't have to do the show. If they say yes, then I get to do something I want to do.'" - pierce
[2004-06-25 09:58:02] - Kind of deep quote from The Onion A.V. Club's interview with Mike Judge... - pierce
[2004-06-25 09:36:46] - travis: should work for me and lisa. - pierce
[2004-06-25 09:33:43] - paul: you don't have "show hidden files and folders" on by default? ~a
[2004-06-25 09:31:36] - does paul have today off? ~a
[2004-06-25 09:12:15] - travis: yeah, I think that should work - vinnie
[2004-06-25 09:09:24] - vinnie: does 4:15 work for sunday? - travis
[2004-06-25 09:06:04] - Vinnie: I read about that, and am not that surprised. Do people really think politicians swear less than the rest of us? OK, maybe less than a rapper, but-- Xpovos
[2004-06-25 09:02:35] - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html cheney drops the 'f' bomb on a senator - vinnie
[2004-06-25 09:01:00] - paul: you need to turn on "show hidden files and folders" - vinnie
[2004-06-24 23:35:48] - Vinnie: I don't see an App Data folder in my Documents and Settings directory. -paul
[2004-06-24 17:14:40] - Mel: It's possible I did but I don't remember it at all. -Paul
[2004-06-24 17:07:56] - Paul: Oh, I thought maybe you had one as a kid.
-mel[2004-06-24 17:02:29] - Mel: That's how I found out he was a Playskool character.
-Paul[2004-06-24 17:02:07] - Pierce: That might not work, since most everybody as gone home. -Paul
[2004-06-24 16:55:25] - Paul: the restaurant having its own "police" force, which imposes (including by violent means) the restaurant's wishes on others, is fundamentally warlordism. Talk amongst yourself. - pierce
[2004-06-24 16:53:24] - Paul: I looked it up with Playskool and found a nunch of dolls on sale on eBay -mel
[2004-06-24 16:52:54] - Paul: haha. nice. ok thanks. -mel
[2004-06-24 16:06:45] - Mel: Maybe there was some Dapper Dan clothing that Playskool had and that's what it refers too. -Paul
[2004-06-24 15:59:03] - Mel: It's a lyric from a song. -Paul
[2004-06-24 15:58:01] - Paul: what do you think "dapper dan wearing" would mean? -mel
[2004-06-24 15:56:48] - aaron: ack! sorry, haven't been checking mail. I've sent it - vinnie
[2004-06-24 15:56:39] - Paul: I didn't know it was an educational toy. -mel
[2004-06-24 15:55:08] - Mel: You mean besides being a playskool educational toy? -Paul
[2004-06-24 15:51:30] - all: hey what does "dapper dan" mean? does anyone know? I tried google, wiki, and m-w -mel
[2004-06-24 15:26:58] - vinnie: direct meeeeee - aaron
[2004-06-24 15:11:52] - 80 days? CRAZY! (oh and by the way: you all suck (generally)) ~a
[2004-06-24 13:24:01] - Travis: Thanks. Leaving them off the personal journal section was intentional since I intend to take it down soon but I had forgotten about the bio and writing section. I'll get to work on that when I have the time. -Paul
[2004-06-24 13:18:29] - paul: just in case you care, the links section is missing links on every page but the main journal and its comments pages - travis
[2004-06-24 13:15:34] - Aaron: Well, they actually made a slight reference to the fact that the police are not a private collection force but you raise an interesting point. The problem could've been solved if the restaurant had their own 'police' force.
-Paul[2004-06-24 13:14:25] - http://msn.match.com/msn/article.aspx?articleid=2380&TrackingID=516311&BannerID=5446577>1=3584 Does anybody else think it's weird that every single article on MSN.com that has to do with dating is always aimed at women? -Paul
[2004-06-24 13:02:29] - Surely this is the kind of problem which could be avoided by privatizing the police force - aaron
[2004-06-24 13:02:15] - How much could the meal be? $30? That's like jailing someone for a parking ticket. - aaron
[2004-06-24 12:15:57] - http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_997980.html Mother and daughter sue restaurant over spicy dish -Paul
[2004-06-24 12:06:01] - Vinnie: I see. I never checked anywhere outside of Program Files. I'll give it a try when I get home. Thanks. -Paul
[2004-06-24 12:01:51] - sorry, Docs and Settings\_username_\App Data\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\default.xxx\chrome - vinnie
[2004-06-24 12:01:11] - it doesn't go in Program Files, it goes in Documents and Settings. try Docs and Settings\_username_\App Data\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\default.xxx where xxx is three random alphanums - vinnie
[2004-06-24 11:53:56] - Vinnie: I stuck it in a lot of directories.
Mostly, the defaults\profiles\ directory, I think. -paul[2004-06-24 11:50:58] - what directory did you stick the userChrome.css file in? - vinnie
[2004-06-24 11:44:00] - Vinnie: The only thing I used with the google toolbar was the search box and the pop-up blocking and since Firefox already seems to have both I don't see a need to install it. But I would appreciate any help you could give me with resizing the search bar on Firefox. -Paul
[2004-06-24 11:38:42] - paul: I got it to work finally. I can help you set it up, but I installed the googletoolbar extension yesterday which has more features than the search bar and basically replaces it. and it can be resized easily - vinnie
[2004-06-24 11:31:27] - Vinnie: Oh, and I couldn't get that Firefox code to expand the search bar to work either. -Paul
[2004-06-24 11:27:09] - Vinnie: I heard about that. It's cool because it seems to help out both teams, although I'm sure the Wizards will still suck next year like you say.
-paul[2004-06-24 11:19:45] - http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1827125 i'm sure eddie jordan will manage to make him suck - vinnie
[2004-06-24 10:43:52] - Aaron: It's actually a number of different movies (I think around 5, which would be apropos). I wouldn't be surprised by mediocre reviews, B5 is still somewhat of a cult show. -Paul
[2004-06-24 10:35:09] - http://www.dailycamera.com/bdc/nation_world_news/article/0,1713,BDC_2420_2984793,00.html superman is born, and he's a german mutant - travis
[2004-06-24 10:34:45] - http://www.newcomicreviews.com/temp/spidey/rotate.php keep refreshing to get a different comic (supposed to be around 20 different ones) - travis
[2004-06-24 10:17:47] - Kind of a lackluster review. Was it a good movie? - aaron
[2004-06-24 10:00:36] - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002B15UQ/ref=pd_ser_asin_7/102-2840129-8605726?v=glance&s=dvd SWEET! -Paul
[2004-06-24 09:11:23] - i kicked you. your baby's dead. i kicked you. your baby's dead. i kicked you. your baby's dead. ha ha ha. your baby's dead.
[2004-06-24 08:45:39] - I thought your wife was fat but it turned out she was pregnant so i kicked her in the stomach.
[2004-06-24 08:44:02] - A-C stands for anal cunt. it's a band.
[2004-06-24 08:34:59] - Pierce: Sustainability is a tricky thing because I would argue that no system of government is infinitely sustainable. A-C might be on the lower end of sustainability (below a monarchy and a representative democracy) but I think it could be sustained for about a generation or so before a serious threat to it would emerge. -Paul
[2004-06-24 08:33:08] - Pierce: I think it's workable, sustainability I will address in my next comment, and I do think it would increase the overall quality of life and individual freedoms of people although I admit that for some it would be a downgrade. -Paul
[2004-06-23 23:35:00] - And keep in mind that "abridgement of individual freedoms" includes such abridgement by anybody, not just a governing body of some sort. - pierce
[2004-06-23 23:30:52] - I guess I want you to answer explicitly: do you think anarcho-capitalism is a workable, sustainable system which would be better, in practice, at increasing overall quality of life while minimizing the abridgement of individual freedoms, than representative democracy? - pierce
[2004-06-23 18:18:24] - Paul: don't you think that sustainability is something you have to convince us of as a prerequisite to convincing us that A-C is viable? - pierce
[2004-06-23 17:32:47] - I know that nobody here (including possibly me) thinks a true anarcho capitalist society is sustainable, but the fact of the matter is that if there is some sort of government in place (even if it's as crude as a warlord), then it's not really an anarcho capitalist society. -Paul
[2004-06-23 17:31:48] - Pierce: Well, to be nitpicky, if there is a warlord then it's not really an anarcho capitalist society. -Paul
[2004-06-23 17:29:39] - Pierce: Sorry about that, it turns out I had to make three phone calls. -paul
[2004-06-23 17:15:57] - Talk to you later, everybody. - pierce
[2004-06-23 17:15:50] - Or more correctly, I won't respond until tonight at the earliest. - pierce
[2004-06-23 17:15:19] - But you'll need to do it tonight, since I'm going home shortly. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:59:34] - And before you say that these things happened in "governed" societies, note that you need to explain why they wouldn't happen (or would to a lesser extent) in A-C, in order to support your "atrocities on large scales" claim. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:57:57] - Paul: so you don't think an A-C society would have a warlord? You don't think it could develop and use nuclear weapons? What about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_diamond - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:55:01] - Paul: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=PCG&a=00&b=2&c=1990&d=05&e=23&f=1995&g=m ... I'm not sure about media involvement but it wasn't a big issue in the movie. What else did you need to know about what they did? - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:54:07] - I hate to do this, but I'm going to need to make a phone call right now so I'll be back in a couple of minutes hopefully. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:52:28] - Pierce: But atrocities on large scales are things that I believe can only be done by governments. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:51:54] - Pierce: Because it's entirely possible that the $333,000,000 was chump change to them but the negative exposure drove them bankrupt or something. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:51:27] - Paul: but for all the atrocities that occur because of government, there are many that would occur without government because atrocities are the result of any unaccountable power. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:51:26] - Pierce: I still need to know other things like how big of a company it was, whether the media got involved, what the company even did, whether it was publically traded, etc. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:50:38] - Pierce: I know, and that's why I said what I did. I don't think there is anything I could tell you that would convince you that pollution is a problem that can be solved without the government. We just disagree, plan and simple. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:49:31] - Paul: how is the government useless? They fined PG&E $333,000,000 (I see now that I omitted that, but deal with that fact now that I've said it). - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:49:06] - Pierce: I guess I dislike your theory of the common good. Far too many atrocities have been committed in it's name. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:48:02] - Paul: Yes, tons of problems can be solved without the government. But sometimes certain solutions are necessary for the common good, and the government has to enforce adherence to those solutions. I use the government in all your examples because all of them fall within the protections of society that are proper for government. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:47:15] - Pierce: I can throw out some theories about how the government could've possibly made the situation worse but it's nothing you would believe and nothing I would put much stock in either. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:46:17] - Pierce: Right, but the information I would need is basically what happened after that. Because so far I see the government as being useless in that scenario. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:45:42] - Paul: so in that example, which I understand is close enough to the truth for argumentative purposes, how would A-C be a better solution? Did the presence of government cause PG&E to be evil? No. Would they have been punished without government involvement in the form of the court system? Minimally if at all. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:45:41] - Pierce: I know you never did but that's the impression that I get from you. Every argument of a solution that doesn't involve the government that I give you disagree with (not unreasonably) and so I wonder if there are any problems you think can be solved without the government. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:44:18] - Paul: when did I say "only" the government can offer real solutions? I never did. But the presence of government is integral to the acceptance of the solutions that serve the common good even if they are less profitable for the individual or a specific corporation. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:43:05] - Erin Brockovich comes in, investigates, and through an individual whistleblower with access to documents that PG&E ordered destroyed, discovers the truth and successfully proves it in court. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:41:58] - PG&E builds a plant which releases toxins into the local water. They lie to the surrounding town and say that what they're releasing is a different, nontoxic chemical. People start getting sick and dying, and PG&E puts on airs as the good corporation by paying for doctors to (minimally) treat the diseases without investigating their origin
[2004-06-23 16:41:53] - Pierce: I think you believe that only the government can offer real solutions to problems and that is where we disagree. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:40:10] - Pierce: And I disagree. I think only in the least ideal circumstances does A-C have a problem with it. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:39:47] - Paul: here's PG&E in a nutshell, as I understand it (admittedly from the dramatized version that was the movie): - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:39:41] - Pierce: It's the same thing here. I can tell you I don't think it would happen and I can tell you why I think that, but I can't give you anything more than my opinion and assumptions. I'm sorry. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:39:12] - Pierce: I think this goes back to when Adrian and I were discussing speed limits. He claimed that without speed limits, everybody would drive at unsafe speeds and crash and die and I told him I didn't think it would happen but it's not like I can PROVE that to him. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:39:06] - Paul: no, you didn't. But it's one example of a real-world problem that A-C doesn't deal with successfully in any but the most ideal circumstances. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:38:04] - Pierce: This isn't meant to sound snotty, I'm actually curious, did I ever claim that an A-C society would deal with pollution better than our current one? -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:37:15] - *Shrug* I don't know the story well enough to say, actually. I would have to do research into exactly what happened afterwards. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:36:36] - Paul: what assumption do you make that makes you believe PG&E would have acted better, or been more likely to be punished, or to a more appropriate extent, in an anarchist society? - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:35:25] - Paul: but you admit that without the government, the work of Brockovich et al would have been to far less effect, right? - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:35:02] - Pierce: My defense of anarchy necessarily HAS to be based on assumptions since we don't have an example to work with. What the hell else do you want me to give you? -paul
[2004-06-23 16:34:34] - Paul: well, there's no anarchist society on earth, so I can't exactly use those examples, can I? But the problems I cite are things that would occur in an anarchist society, yet you give no reason why they would be better-handled in it. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:34:23] - Pierce, Pierce, Pierce. I never said that you did. But I won't repeat what I've already typed three times because if you haven't understood me yet I give up.
-Paul[2004-06-23 16:33:38] - Pierce: The fine was enforced by the government and that was pretty much all it did. It was up to the people, the same people who would be responsible for correcting this kind of injustice in an A-C society, to do the real work. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:33:10] - However, your defense of anarchy consists entirely of assumptions that people and groups will behave correctly often enough that they don't need to be accountable to a higher authority, which I think is utterly and totally false. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:33:00] - Paul, paul, paul. Have I ever said representative democracy is flawless? No, in fact I've said the exact opposite. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:32:29] - Pierce: No, but I'm saying it seems counter productive to use examples of bad things from our governed society to point out why we need a government to keep bad things from happening.
-Paul[2004-06-23 16:31:39] - Pierce: Ungoverned societies have much more than the morality of the companies for prevention. Public perception plays a huge role too. And the rest is pretty much your opinion which I can't really prove prove wrong now can I?
-Paul[2004-06-23 16:30:52] - And the "correction" of the wrong was entirely government-instantiated. Brockovich et al proved the wrong but had no way of physically extracting the penalty from PG&E. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:30:01] - Paul: have I ever said government would be able to completely eliminate pollution? However, I think it's logical to bet that the PG&E situation caused other companies to start behaving correctly out of fear of a similar fate. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:29:32] - Pierce: Either way, I still fully admit that an A-C society isn't perfect. Bad things can happen. One of these days, though, I'm going to take great joy in asking you to defend a representative democracy from all it's flaws.
-Paul[2004-06-23 16:28:32] - Paul: ungoverned societies have no prevention other than the "morality of companies" that exists in our current system and has been shown to be insufficient, and accountability is limited to the circumstances in which blame can be accurately assigned... which without regulation becomes much, much harder. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:27:58] - Pierce: But nothing was done to prevent the pollution in the first place and it wasn't great government crusaders who did most of the work in correcting the wrong, it was mostly the action of the people who did it. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:25:16] - Paul: umm, they won the lawsuit against PG&E. The people who were affected by pollution achieved redress for their suffering, other companies were shown that it may well be more profitable to spend money to prevent pollution because the government would hold them accountable. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:25:13] - Pierce: And I am saying ungoverned societies do too. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:25:08] - vinnie: me either. extremely cool. I'm so glad I started using firefox. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:24:48] - vinnie: son many options that my mind is spinning. you can also have your mouse pointer change if it is over a link that will be eopned in a new window. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:24:37] - mel: sometime at home I'm gonna have to sit down for a couple hours and customize the hell out of my Mozilla. I can't believe how much stuff you can play with - vinnie
[2004-06-23 16:24:34] - Pierce: I'm saying that it seems like you are using all these examples to say how an A-C society wouldn't work and I am saying that those problems probably would arise in an A-C society but your examples prove that having a government around is no guarantee it won't happen at all. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:23:44] - Paul: no, my argument is that bad stuff will happen in both societies if anybody is evil. But governed societies at least have some form of prevention and accountability for the evil actions. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:23:24] - Pierce: I fully admit that bad things CAN happen. I don't know what else you want from me. A-C is not perfect. Everybody won't live in blissful happiness. Evil people will do evil things. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:22:35] - Paul: how can you say that the government hasn't done much to solve the problem? Simply because the pollution still exists? I never said we could abolish all negative environmental effects, but accountability by a higher authority has most certainly improved the situation. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:22:25] - Pierce: No, but I am familiar with the story. Again, another example where the government did nothing to prevent what you are blaming an A-C society for. I don't see how this helps your case. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:21:34] - Pierce: You can always find some way of breaking any system. Yes, bad stuff can happen in an A-C society if everybody is evil. Guess what? The same bad things can happen (and do) in our current society and not everybody is evil. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:21:06] - Paul: that morality does exist and has occurred. This is not hypothetical. Didn't you see Erin Brockovich? - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:20:13] - Pierce: No I'm not. I'm saying that you're pointing at a history of pollution being a problem and I am saying that if it is, then appearantly having a government around didn't do much to solve the problem. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:20:03] - vinnie:
yes sweeeeeet. -mel[2004-06-23 16:19:34] - Pierce: Again, I'll say that it is entirely possible that a company would decide to pollute and kill everybody with their pollution, but that I think it's just as unlikely as our government deciding to make it against the law for blacks to live or something. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:19:25] - Pollution from, say, nuclear weapons might be a bad example (though not necessarily... they could still exist in an anarchist society), but things like sewage are the result of human civilization whether governed or not. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:19:18] - (the extra's 'e's represent the extra bar length) - vinniew
[2004-06-23 16:19:16] - Paul: again, you're attributing pollution to the government without proving that that pollution wouldn't have occurred without the government present. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:18:57] - sweeeeeeeeeeeet - vinnie
[2004-06-23 16:18:34] - Pierce: In your example of the chicken farm, you're also assuming that not only the chicken farm has no moral qualms about killing a village of people, but also that all the companies that do business with them don't care and that the customers of THOSE businesses don't care. I think you're assuming a lot of immorality there. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:17:11] - Pierce: History is not a good judge for a number of reasons. Mainly that we didn't know that pollution was bad back then. Hell, history actually supports my point that the government seems to have not done a good job in preventing pollution. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:16:39] - Paul: there are tangible monetary benefits, in the form of improved public perception and therefore better branding, and tax writeoffs. You're taking away the latter, and the former doesn't affect the likelihood of that same company hiding dangerous environmental practices. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:16:26] - vinnie: yes exactly. its confusing because there are two chrome folders. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:16:02] - vinnie: yay. cool. let me know if it works. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:15:53] - it goes in Profiles\default.xxx\chrome I guess? - vinnir
[2004-06-23 16:15:47] - vinnie: check if you have that folder. You are probably the only user and I'm guessing you didn'
[2004-06-23 16:15:38] - Pierce: No authority that I would get you to recognize.
The chicken farm would be affected by sales because I assume other people would care that the vegetarians were killed off. And vegetarianism isn't genetic, so their families could eat meat. -Paul[2004-06-23 16:15:25] - mel: d'oh! I think I get it now - vinnie
[2004-06-23 16:15:04] - paul: yeah, nutrient-wise you probably won't get something cheaper than milk. I thought you were drinking it for the taste or something
- vinnie[2004-06-23 16:14:13] - vinnie: Under \Firefox\Profiles\ do you have a folder called default.xxx? -mel
[2004-06-23 16:14:08] - Paul: you assume that, but history doesn't show you to be correct. History shows it to be cheaper to hide the source of the pollution than to take responsibility for it. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:13:47] - mel: damn. when I go home I'll try it on my home machine in XP. maybe it's an NT thing - vinnie
[2004-06-23 16:13:43] - Pierce: Agreed, but all I'm saying is that you can just assume that companies will always completely ignore doing the right thing. Plenty of companies give money to charity and clean up pollution and all sorts of other stuff even though there are no tangible monetary benefits. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:13:40] - vinnie: wait no.. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:13:13] - Paul: sued? Under whose authority would they be sued? And how is the chicken farm in my example affected in terms of sales? The vegetarians weren't customers, their families aren't customers, their customers are businesses more concerned with profits than morality, and if they're really worried it'd be cheaper to cover it up. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:12:59] - vinnie: that's where I put my file too. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:12:45] - vinnie: yes, from the same page, just below the toolbar info. that was a useful link. thanks. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:12:13] - Pierce: Well, I would assume somebody would learn that the commune of vegetarians got killed off and word would get out and the company would get blacklisted. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:11:32] - Paul: and actually, companies are completely amoral (not necessarily immoral), and are entirely devoted to obtaining wealth. It's only individuals within those companies that have morality, and since companies are rarely democratic they are not always in positions to modify the company-as-a-whole's behavior. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:11:21] - mel: sweet! I wasn't even sure that was possible. did you find out how to do that on the same page? - vinnie
[2004-06-23 16:11:00] - Pierce: But you also have to factor in the long term costs and I think most businesses would conclude that the cost of properly getting rid of waste is worth it when measured against the potential for lost sales and being sued down the line. -Paul
[2004-06-23 16:10:46] - I'm on NT. \docs and settings\_username_\App Data\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\chrome that's correct, right? - vinnie
[2004-06-23 16:10:42] - vinnie: I also installed tabExtentions and now I have my e-mail and other programs open a new tab instead of a new browser. yay! -mel
[2004-06-23 16:10:02] - Moreover, you're assuming that the negative effects would matter to your customer base... what if a chicken farm that sold mostly to remote restaurants killed a commune of vegetarians with its sewage runoff? Who would care, and how would their caring be guaranteed (with sufficient likelihood) to affect the original farm? - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:09:48] - paul: haha. nice. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:09:20] - Vinnie: What would I replace it with then? I admit it's a somewhat appealing idea since I've heard about some of the bad aspects of milk, but I need to get my calcium and other nutrients somewhere. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:09:08] - vinnie: windows xp. how about you? Where did you put userChrome.css? -mel
[2004-06-23 16:08:36] - Paul: Without regulation, it's nearly always cheaper to use the unsafe solution to pollution and spend the money you saved on covering it up. If no one knows whose sewage it is, no one (or a negligible number of people) will boycott your business. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:08:33] - Pierce: No problem. Not all of us put the message board as their top priority. -paul
[2004-06-23 16:06:29] - paul: how about: stop drinking milk
- vinnie[2004-06-23 16:06:20] - Paul: I can only talk intermittently, I'm in a pretty heavy email exchange here, so forgive my sporadic responses. - pierce
[2004-06-23 16:05:49] - Mel: Oh well. There went my brilliant idea for saving a couple of dollars a month.
-Paul[2004-06-23 16:05:31] - mel: yeah, even restarted. nothing. what OS are you using? - vinnie
[2004-06-23 16:03:36] - Paul: I don't think adding water is the same. Maybe it seems the same but I don't think its actually the same. -mel
[2004-06-23 16:01:32] - Paul: no. http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1085736189156460.xml -mel
[2004-06-23 15:59:17] - Mel: I don't know. Does whole milk and skim milk cost the same? -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:55:44] - vinnie: did you close all your firefox windows and relaunch firefox? -mel
[2004-06-23 15:55:24] - vinnie: I followed the instructions listed on the link you posted and got the google toolbar to resize. -mel
[2004-06-23 15:54:56] - Paul: yes he was. but anyway I thought it was interesting that adding water to milk actually worked so well. why don't people do that? -mel
[2004-06-23 15:50:56] - Pierce: But I can almost assure you that if the problem was big enough, that people would hear about it and there would start being ramifications for the company. And this is all assuming that companies have no morals whatsoever and are only out for money, which I maintain is not always true. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:50:02] - Pierce: A company in an A-C society would probably try to get away with it and as long as not enough people cared, they would continue to get away with it. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:49:02] - Pierce: Because I think you underestimate the power of people in societies. In many cases, companies are more concerned about losing business than they are about government fines. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:48:12] - Pierce: Well, in the case of seweage, if we assume there are no overriding reasons for a company to clean it up (it gets dumped in some lake they do not own), then I imagine that they would do nothing about the problem until people protested and forced them to do something about it. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:46:59] - Now, you could hypothetically pay for costly sewage treatment plants and make it safe, or you could simply pipe it into a neighbor's lake and pretend nothing happened. Which would an anarcho-capitalist company do? - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:45:31] - Paul: it can apply to anything, but let's try sewage. - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:45:20] - Pierce: I think in most cases, unsafe methods of dealing with pollution is NOT the cheap route that businesses would take. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:44:32] - Mel: Hah! So he was cheating them?
-Paul[2004-06-23 15:43:53] - Pierce: Maybe I should ask what kind of pollution you are talking about before I go forward. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:42:57] - Paul: seriously? You think that the lack of a government would make it so that people and companies would say "Wow, no one's watching me so I'd better do the right thing!"? - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:41:19] - Pierce: I'm not so sure the accountability aspect is necessary if you don't have a government. The accountability argument was added in order to address the fact that the government needed to be accountable for the pollution they were dumping. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:40:53] - Paul: you're assuming companies would see it as "find safe ways of dealing with pollution by the free market" versus "find safe ways of dealing with pollution by government mandate". I contend that the most common behavior would be "find cheap, if unsafe, ways of dealing with pollution". - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:40:05] - Paul: so he could make more money by bselling more milk. -mel
[2004-06-23 15:39:10] - Paul: that is arguably valid for a libertarian government, in which there is still a ruling body holding individuals and groups (whether private or public) accountable for their pollution. But how is there accountability for pollution in an anarchist society, in which there is no governing body? - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:38:17] - Mel: Why did he add water to it? -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:38:00] - Pierce: I'm not familiar enough with how pollution is reduced and gotten rid of to cite specific examples. I can, however, argue why it would be economic for companies to do so without regulations. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:37:48] - Paul: My dad used to deliver milk when he was a kid and he said he used to add water to it. Then when he stopped adding water, people complained because the milk was "weird" and "too thick." -mel
[2004-06-23 15:36:41] - Pierce: http://www.lp.org/issues/environment.html LP position on the environment. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:36:31] - Paul: what "adequate" ways have private companies come up with, that would be more economic (such that they'd be chosen in an anarcho-capitalist society) and less environmentally hazardous to the population? - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:35:30] - haha. I just read the first page in previous entires. you guys are funny.
I bet if I had been posting way back then my first posts would be similar. -mel[2004-06-23 15:34:28] - Pierce: It's probably a little of both, although I wouldn't say that pollution is primarily a by-product of the existence of government. I'm just saying that private companies seem to have found a way (with a few exceptions) to adequately deal with pollution on their own while the government has not. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:31:37] - Paul: are you implying that the presence of pollution is entirely (or at least primarily) a by-product of the existence of government? Or could it be that the government serves to collect pollutants that would've been generated anyway, and put them on government land? - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:30:13] - Pierce: Is it safe? That's somewhat vague. I would tend to say yes, it is. It's telling that the most polluted places in America today are ones that are owned by the government. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:29:55] - vinnie: yeah, thinking about it Seamonkey is a shitty name... it's very closely associated with big promises and bitter disappointments. - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:27:23] - Paul: answer the other question: is the environment (and by extension, the people in the environment) safe in an anarchist society? - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:27:10] - Pierce: Probably. I don't remember the exact error that I got though. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:26:10] - Pierce: I have no idea what prompted me to say that back then but my guess is that I was saying that out of a sense of "well of course we need SOME regulations" without thinking it through. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:25:16] - so I had to start over in IE and pick a different phone number. and I liked the one that I had to give up better than the one we ended up with
- vinnie[2004-06-23 15:24:40] - actually I had an even worse mozilla bug yesterday when trying to set up the phone line. there was some javascript problem or something that was causing me to not be able to advance to the next step - vinnie
[2004-06-23 15:23:38] - seamonkey? where do they get these dumb names? - vinnie
[2004-06-23 15:23:29] - Paul: does this seem like the bug you've encountered? http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123662 - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:22:40] - So Paul, as a serious question, what was it that caused you to say you supported environmental regulations back then, that you reject now that you've been enlightened? Is the environment safe in an anarchist society? - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:21:14] - Vinnie: I haven't had that bug, but I have had times when it refused to load a page and I ended up needing to clear my cache to get it to load. -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:21:03] - Vinnie: for the moment, I personally prefer the main Mozilla application, affectionately named SeaMonkey. You seem to be having a lot of problems that probably aren't prevalent in the 1.7 Seamonkey release. - pierce
[2004-06-23 15:20:11] - Pierce: Ah, yes. How naive I once was. I used to think that we needed environmental regulations, that third world immigrants were civilized, and that stratego had skill involved. Skill! -Paul
[2004-06-23 15:19:38] - anyone else get this bug in firefox where after a point the page turns to garbage. once I reload it seems fine, but still... - vinnie
[2004-06-23 15:19:08] - hahahaha - vinnie
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