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[2004-11-10 13:58:50] - travis: yeah, thats very true. Well I want to get a puppy sometime soon. But it will be a big commitment. Then maybe the kitten and the puppy can play together.. -mel
[2004-11-10 13:58:06] - mel: err, I mean there was always dry food for them to have -dave
[2004-11-10 13:57:55] - mel: when I've fed neighbor's cats in the past, usually they got fed a can of wet food a day, and the dry food was just kept in supply there -dave
[2004-11-10 13:57:55] - Paul: their investment in the xbox was only dubious if their goal was limited to its success as a game console. In the larger context, it makes much more sense but still represents a significant risk. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:57:45] - travis: cool, thanks. I think this kitten is older than claimed too. So far it only eats wet food, and it eats it constantly. I've heard that dry food is better in terms of not gettign you cat fat. ?? -mel
[2004-11-10 13:56:55] - mel: as for exercise, having two cats is great because they chase each other around and wrestle so they get a lot of exercise that way - travis
[2004-11-10 13:56:53] - http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BB6D3313E%2DBC36%2D42B2%2D8E22%2DCCFA52C1864F%7D&siteid=mktw&dist= Europeans claim 10 of the top 11 most unreliable cars -dave
[2004-11-10 13:56:38] - Pierce: Ok, so their investment in X-Box was dubious, but necessary? -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:56:10] - Dave: in case I haven't made it clear, I think that that particular long-term plan is mostly sound. But there's always room for the unexpected. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:55:53] - mel: about my cats: i feed them dry food. i used kitten food in the beginning, mainly because the shelter claimed they were much younger than they actually are. i basically just fill the bowl up with food whenever i see it's running low, which is usually only about once a day - travis
[2004-11-10 13:53:20] - Pierce: ahh I see. But at the same time, it's still TV. And it didn't change the movie market really any -dave
[2004-11-10 13:52:53] - Paul: not at all. None of them are sure things, but I think most of them are conceptually sound. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:52:32] - out of random curiosity, you know how people in movies lift gold bullion bars? How much would a bar actually weigh? -dave
[2004-11-10 13:52:06] - Dave: I can't either, but then again I wouldn't have predicted normal TV shows being replaced by "reality" TV. Not anywhere near what I'm talking about in terms of magnitude, but the important part is that it was completely unexpected. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:51:02] - Pierce: So you're saying their long term plans are dubious? -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:50:53] - a: the price may not be huge, but it's incredibly stable considering what the market's been going through. It only lost half its value in the burst that decimated other companies. MS's business planners know how to protect themselves. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:50:08] - Pierce: change the concept of media eh? I can't imagine movies going away ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 13:49:20] - a: because it's all relative. Everyone has known that MS has tons of money for a long time, so it's been built into their stock price for forever -dave
[2004-11-10 13:48:46] - a: because they're not using their money to grow... they're walking on a treadmill at the moment. Once some of their long-term plans start to pay off (and if they do), expect a surge. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:47:06] - Dave: I think it'll eventually happen too, but we can't predict whether there's going to be a major media delivery revolution before it does. Something could come along and change the concept of "media" completely, we just don't know it yet. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:46:09] - dave&pierce: if ms has so much money then why does their stock suck so much. ~a
[2004-11-10 13:45:29] - Paul: ... which is not a guaranteed thing at all. I remember visionaries in the early nineties predicting on-demand media of any type, at minimum cost, by 2000. The backbone architecture just isn't there yet. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:44:35] - Pierce: eh, it'll eventually happen. The problem is, only MS has the money to be able to insure that they'll still be there when it DOES happen, hehe -dave
[2004-11-10 13:43:50] - Paul: most companies can't afford to take such a huge risk just in the hopes of future payoff. Microsoft is banking their Xbox investment on the widespread adoption of broadband media delivery. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:43:10] - Pierce: ahhh, gotcha -dave
[2004-11-10 13:42:45] - Dave: I'm not sure if it's correct, but I'm using it to desribe "independent" companies that are owned by the first party (microsoft). They can manage their own business, but have much closer ties (for better or for worse) to the parent company than third-party developers. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:42:40] - Pierce: But aren't you also saying that this was the centerpiece to their future plans? So didn't they not really have a choice but to invest in X-Box? -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:41:26] - Paul: and don't forget the fact that to implement one of the most touted features of the new generation of game consoles, DVD playing ability, they had to pay royalties to Sony. That's one of the reasons the Xbox didn't have that functionality out of the box. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:40:49] - Pierce: second-party? what's a second-party? -dave
[2004-11-10 13:39:46] - Paul: so I think MS's relationship for Xbox game development is to rely on second-party developers. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:39:11] - Paul: they had to compete against three established industry players, against the sequel to the most popular console of all time with a ton of exclusive titles and backwards compatibility, selling the most expensive hardware at the same price as the least expensive hardware, a year after the introduction of their strongest competition. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:35:46] - Paul: actually, I stand corrected... Microsoft owns Bungie, developers of Halo. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:35:09] - Pierce: Why is their investment in X-Box dubious? -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:33:34] - Paul: for a few titles, most notably Halo, they invest heavily in a third party developer and then play the role of publisher/distributer. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:33:17] - Paul: which, amusingly, MS got out of recently ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 13:32:54] - Paul: separately, I was talking about MS using its solid financial foundation to position itself for its long-term plans. Hence the dubious investment in the Xbox against well-established industry players, in the hopes that they can get a bite (or control) of the media console market for when broadband media delivery finally takes off. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:32:12] - Pierce: Well, I would think MMORPGs are actually a very sustainable source of income considering the time some people spend on games like Everquest. -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:31:12] - Pierce: Ok, does Microsoft make a lot of video games for the X-Box (like Nintendo) or do they mostly leave that to third party developers? -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:30:56] - Paul: talking about video games was spawned from my comment that MS dominates almost every market they're in, and Dave said that they'd backed out on MMORPGs, for example. And I was explaining why. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:30:15] - Paul: we're talking about video games. We were also talking about consoles, but in a different context. I can understand how it would be confusing. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:29:41] - Dave: true, I'll admit that sports games follow a markedly different trend than the rest of the video game industry. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:29:23] - Pierce: Are we talking about video games or consoles? Because Microsoft (or Sony) have very little to do with the creation of new Final Fantasy games. -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:29:11] - Microsoft can (and has) made relatively minor alterations to the core MS Office product for years, but they get oodles of cash with each new major version. You just can't draw the same margins for a market like video games. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:28:27] - Pierce: unless it's a sports game. then all they really need to do is change the stats on all the players ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 13:27:38] - Dave: I mean, for the most part they can't just put a sparkling new UI on top of FF8 and call it FF9. They have to come up with a new story, new graphics, new voice acting, and they have to make people think it's an entirely new product. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:27:10] - Pierce: *nod* yeah, nothing like the office suite market -dave
[2004-11-10 13:26:46] - Pierce: *nod* the problem I heard was that cable companies didn't want to endorse it since it would directly compete with their pay-per-view offerings -dave
[2004-11-10 13:26:21] - Dave: I agree that the brand confers some level of consumer loyalty, but it's not nearly as loyal as, say, the office suite market, and it has a much higher cost for each version in the series. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:24:54] - Dave: problem with the Netflix/Tivo deal was that they didn't have the legal rights to distribute the entirety of Netflix's library over broadband. They could only get specific titles, making them comparable to existing Pay-Per-View services and the semi-instant gratification of going to a Blockbuster and picking something out. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:24:48] - Pierce: True. I was just thinking about how people many times decide what console to get based on what titles they believe they will be able to play on it -dave
[2004-11-10 13:24:04] - mel: yeah, i think it was in the news coupla weeks / months ago. -dave
[2004-11-10 13:23:36] - Dave: I had heard about that, but unfortunately I think both Netflix and Tivo are banking on a market that isn't there, in the hopes of protecting themselves from competition in their primary markets. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:22:37] - dave: is netflix really teaming up with tivo? I didn't hear about that. -mel
[2004-11-10 13:22:36] - Dave: but the only thing game series have going for them is the name recognition. It's not like you're going to use your FF7 save games in FFX, so if you hear that Knights of the Old Republic is better you'll be much more likely to switch. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:21:59] - pierce: hmm, what you're saying makes sense, unfortunately. -mel
[2004-11-10 13:20:47] - Pierce: errr, I mean I enjoyed them in Halo 1. So it's sad that they aren't as good for Halo 2 -dave
[2004-11-10 13:20:28] - Pierce: awww, I thought the single/double player campaigns were fun -dave
[2004-11-10 13:19:44] - Pierce: Video downloads? You haven't heard about Netflix teaming up with Tivo to do that? -dave
[2004-11-10 13:19:24] - Dave: I gather that it's as good or better for multiplayer, but the single player campaign is ridiculously short and doesn't have a satisfying ending. But I haven't played it, so YMMV. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:18:30] - So when we get to the point where broadband technology (and intellectual property logistics) are stable enough to allow video downloads, MS will have positioned itself to be the technological basis of the client side of those transactions. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:18:19] - Pierce: Halo! Anyone have Halo 2? It as good as the first? ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 13:17:40] - Pierce: hmmm, I guess not, except to the same extent that usually certain game series stick with certain companies. Like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, etc etc -dave
[2004-11-10 13:16:55] - Mel: I think MS wants to be the primary pipeline for media delivery to the home in the future. To do so, they need to have a technological base in people's entertainment centers, preferrably one with network access and removeable media capabilities. Sound like anything we know? - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:15:25] - Dave: the problem with the video game industry for them is that it's not as sustainable as they'd like. With, say, MS Office, they can count on their installed base to fuel sales of the next version. But they can't count as much on the installed base of MS Flight Simulator 2002 to fuel sales of MS Flight Simulator 2004. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:15:13] - Pierce: interestingly, I actually just read today that MSN just recently (this past year?) made a profit for the first time -dave
[2004-11-10 13:13:50] - Mel: Ah, ok. -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:13:49] - pierce: now look and what you've gone and done. mel will never forgive you now, HEHE ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 13:13:17] - pierce: what sort of game console interests? -mel
[2004-11-10 13:12:57] - pierce: hmm, I'm starting to be convinced that microsoft can beat google if they want to..
-mel[2004-11-10 13:12:34] - Dave: they haven't really abandoned the video game industry, they've just changed from seeing it as a profit in itself to using it as a tool to promote their game console interests (and also to make a profit). - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:12:18] - mel: hehe. ^_^ it reminds me of andrew and his cat. He has this stick with a long string attacked to it, and then this feather/fur type thing on the end. He sits in one place and flicks it around and the cat jumps all over the place. Does some spectacular leaps -dave
[2004-11-10 13:12:05] - Paul: yes, I like google a lot more than I like microsoft, so I would hope they wouldn't sell. -mel
[2004-11-10 13:11:12] - dave: I think me runnign around the apartment with a mouse on the string was pretty funny. But I need to get excersise too. The cat is pretty smart. He eventually figured out that my hand movement was related to the mouse movement and he started watching my hand. -mel
[2004-11-10 13:10:59] - they want to control the game console market because they think that it will mutate into the home media delivery market. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:10:33] - pierce: but yeah, if MS wanted to, they could probably become the market leader in any of those markets, if they really committed to it -dave
[2004-11-10 13:10:29] - Dave: right. But the thing is, that foundation gives MS a lot of flexibility to choose the markets that they think they'll need to control for their long-term plans. They want the search engine/portal market because they want to control the future of remote (web) applications... - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:09:55] - Pierce: the video game industry? they've been doing that for awhile yes? They left the mmorpg market as well -dave
[2004-11-10 13:08:29] - Pierce: definitely. There aren't many conceivable ways that another company could sink MS. The best someone can do is force them back out of their market -dave
[2004-11-10 13:08:19] - Dave: fine, fine, they dominate almost every non-nascent industry they're committed to. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:07:48] - Mel: Bias? -Paul
[2004-11-10 13:06:59] - Dave: thing is, even if they lose the software debugging market, it's still beneficial to them as long as they continue to dominate the OS market. If someone beats them with a stellar Win32 debugging tool, it just means that more developers are going to want to use Windows, which = cash for MS. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:06:55] - Pierce: yeah, I bet they'll be in the business at the very least for the next 5 years, unless something drastic happens -dave
[2004-11-10 13:06:08] - Paul: I don't really think google would sell either. although I admit bias.
-mel[2004-11-10 13:06:03] - Pierce: they don't dominate the online music business ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 13:05:09] - So unless they want to throw the cash at sinking Sun, or the Playstation 3, or IBM's consulting services, and they don't feel like they can spend money on all of them at once, they're going to keep committing to this market just so they don't look bad. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:04:46] - Pierce: they're also trying to dominate the software debugging market, which I'm not sure they do at present -dave
[2004-11-10 13:03:41] - Pierce: They backed out of the mmorpg business. They don't dominate the video game industry I believe -dave
[2004-11-10 13:02:51] - Pierce: your comments were so profound, the msg board didn't have room for as many other comments ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 13:02:28] - dave: thing is, MS has a lot of income and not as much to spend it on as they once did. They can .NETize all their products, make them look all polished and new, and they can work on Longhorn, but other than that they already dominate almost every market they're in. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:01:31] - Paul: honestly, I don't think Google would sell. -dave
[2004-11-10 13:01:19] - dave: yeah, what you said. - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:01:07] - the question is just going to be "how much money is MS willing to spend for this market". - pierce
[2004-11-10 13:00:54] - Pierce: I agree. The thing is, MS has to decide whether the money will be better thrown at some other project. Like their rate of return will be better from something else -dave
[2004-11-10 13:00:00] - Paul: then it's a draw. - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:59:43] - Dave: after one of my comments, the message board suddenly only had about ten comments on it. Then, after I submitted another one, it went back to its normal length. - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:59:22] - Who wins if Microsoft buys Google? -Paul
[2004-11-10 12:58:56] - Dave: that's kind of my point, though. If MS starts to lose ground, they can just throw money at the problem indefinitely andwin by attrition. If google loses ground, on the other hand, they won't necessarily have the resources to catch up. - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:57:44] - Pierce: *staring blankly* really short? -dave
[2004-11-10 12:57:27] - And now it's long again. Weird. - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:57:14] - Whoa, the board page just got really short. - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:56:43] - Pierce: agreed about it not sinking MS, but I was just focusing on which one would with the search market -dave
[2004-11-10 12:56:14] - Pierce: yeah, it's not exactly like Netscape, since Netscape never had as much marketshare as Google has of the search market at present -dave
[2004-11-10 12:56:13] - Google has fairly deep pockets, but nothing even close to MS. Plus, failing to win the search engine market wouldn't sink Microsoft as a company, and it probably would for Google. - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:55:45] - mel: oops, you already found it ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 12:55:04] - mel: Ballmer is the CEO of Microsoft -dave
[2004-11-10 12:54:49] - I dunno, Google is so well established at this point that it's almost unthinkable that they could be beaten in that market. But their search functionality has some major issues, and it's really all they're known for (gmail too, but Microsoft already has that beat on marketshare with hotmail). - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:54:49] - pierce: so Google's present position would offset Microsofts other assets mebbe -dave
[2004-11-10 12:54:24] - pierce: if they can't, I'd say it's fairly even. Both Microsoft and Google have deep pockets at the moment. -dave
[2004-11-10 12:53:45] - pierce: hmmm, I'm not sure. It's really tough to say IMO. Honestly I think it depends on whether Microsoft can successfully integrate something into windows that makes people more likely to use their search (and not being slapped with another antitrust suit) -dave
[2004-11-10 12:52:31] - mel: haha, image of you running around the apt. with a mouse on a string is hilarious ^_^ -dave
[2004-11-10 12:52:27] - Yeah, that was pretty much what I meant... market share. - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:51:28] - mel: haha, sure. ^_^ No idea how we could quantify it. Maybe some statistic on which has more marketshare or somesuch -dave
[2004-11-10 12:44:16] - pierce: "beat" is pretty hazy. I think a better indicator would be market share. -mel
[2004-11-10 12:43:53] - pierce: which prediction, exactly? beat google's technology? or double advertising revenue? or both. -mel
[2004-11-10 12:43:05] - pierce: ah, ok I found it Chief Executive of Microsoft. -mel
[2004-11-10 12:42:01] - pierce: who is Ballmer? -mel
[2004-11-10 12:41:35] - dave: what do you think about Ballmer's prediction? Overestimating, underestimating, exactly right, or do you think they're not going to surpass google at all? - pierce
[2004-11-10 12:41:07] - dave: want to bet?
how would we quantify who is winning? -mel[2004-11-10 12:40:33] - dave: I bet that on google. -mel
[2004-11-10 12:39:51] - dave: yes, I think excersise is probably an important part. Well with dogs you walk them, but what about with cats? I tied a mouse (with catnip) toy to a string and I've been running around the apartment and the cat chases it, which gives him some execersise.... -mel
[2004-11-10 12:38:13] - travis: this cat is 6 weeks old. He wants to eat constantly.
How many times a day do you feed your cat? Do you feed them them wet food or dry food? Do you buy the regular kind or the kind for kittens? thanks. -mel[2004-11-10 12:36:36] - Ballmer predicts they will surpass Google in 5 years -dave
[2004-11-10 12:36:16] - http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/10/technology/msft_search.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes Microsoft officially launches search engine. Anyone wanna take bets on whether Google can fend them off? -dave
[2004-11-10 11:33:16] - dave: yeah, you describing my dog to a T - vinnie
[2004-11-10 10:21:45] - http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/09/terrorism.student/index.html US student charged with aiding terrorist group -dave
[2004-11-10 09:59:10] - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37992-2004Nov9.html genetically modified US corn being assailed in Mexico -dave
[2004-11-10 09:51:17] - mel: my boss' wife is a vet, and apparently it's not uncommon for people to have fat dogs or cats. It's because they don't get their pets enough exercise, and they always feel bad about not feeding their pet when it wants food, so they get overfed -dave
[2004-11-10 09:47:53] - mel: i'm not worrying about overfeeding my kittens/cats (they're about 8-9 months old, getting out of kitten range), but they started a little underweight and are fairly active so far - travis
[2004-11-10 09:09:29] - aaron: tabbed browsing works, but a lot of the features therein don't work. I'm missing the option to open pop-ups in a new tab rather than a new window, the ability to put the close button on a tab, the ability to duplicate a tab, etc. - vinnie
[2004-11-10 07:31:40] - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38020-2004Nov9.html scramjet propelled vehicle shooting for Mach 10 (go from San Fransisco to DC in 20 mins ^_^) -dave
[2004-11-09 20:21:45] - mel: travis owns a kitten. and how are you learning to sing? ~a
[2004-11-09 20:17:32] - Mel: My aunt has a very fat cat because she feeds it all the time. -Paul
[2004-11-09 19:43:04] - http://store.yahoo.com/homestarrunner/dvddvddvd.html strongbad on dvd - aaron
[2004-11-09 18:48:31] - Heh, the subtitle of the msnbc article: "In letter, attorney general declares victory over crime and terrorism". Glad we don't have any of that pesky crime or terrorism in the world anymore, am I right? - pierce
[2004-11-09 18:47:35] - mel: Garfield's owner. - pierce
[2004-11-09 18:47:22] - pierce: who is John Arbuckle? -mel
[2004-11-09 18:46:49] - a: I finished doing work. My boss needs to come up with new work.... -mel
[2004-11-09 18:46:35] - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6446454/ ASHCROFT RESIGNS!!! HOORAY! - pierce
[2004-11-09 18:46:20] - mel: Jon Arbuckle, probably. - pierce
[2004-11-09 18:46:10] - that question is directed at any kitten owners... -mel
[2004-11-09 18:46:04] - a: I'm in the hotel now, and all my work this week needs to be done in the office. - pierce
[2004-11-09 18:45:41] - also, my roommate got a kitten. I have realized that kittens eat constantly. This one sits in front of the fridge and meows. do people worry about their kittens getting fat? -mel
[2004-11-09 18:44:44] - hey, so I'm trying to learn to sing. it's rather interesting so far. I am hoping that my neighbors don't hate me yet.
-mel[2004-11-09 18:44:07] - haha. there is only so much work to do. -mel
[2004-11-09 18:40:06] - pierce: you could work. ~a
[2004-11-09 18:16:07] - I need something else to argue about. - pierce
[2004-11-09 18:15:54] - Hmmm, try as I might I'm having a hard time caring about whether Belgium's far-right party is racist. - pierce
[2004-11-09 17:45:20] - vinnie: Tabbed browsing still works, right? What kind of extensions don't work? I don't use too many.... just gestures and bugmenot - aaron
[2004-11-09 17:44:30] - http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041109/1/3odtu.html Top court brands Belgian far-right party racist -Paul
[2004-11-09 17:39:21] - pierce: ok, got it. Then I will wait awhile until all the extentions work. -mel
[2004-11-09 17:34:41] - melnie: I don't think there's an upgrade; you have to download the whole thing. But it will import bookmarks and compatible plug-ins (though there are few of those) from an existing installation. - pierce
[2004-11-09 17:26:57] - mel: I'm not even positive there is an upgrade - vinnie
[2004-11-09 17:26:45] - mel: I didn't technically upgrade or even intentionally upgrade. I just got a new laptop at work and that was the version on their site I downloaded - vinnie
[2004-11-09 17:23:37] - vinnie: aww, really? Maybe I shouldn't upgrade yet. how did you upgrade? I just looked at the site briefly and I saw an .exe file. -mel
[2004-11-09 17:23:01] - vinnie: I was amused by your "grain of saturated fat" comment.
-mel[2004-11-09 17:21:38] - paul: yes, the choice of words was intentional. I was agreeing with her - vinnie
[2004-11-09 17:20:46] - pierce: I am kind of annoyed at 1.0 only because few of the extensions work. a lot of my tabbed browsing features are gone
- vinnie[2004-11-09 17:18:26] - pierce: do you know how I can upgrade to 1.0? Do I need to download the same .exe file as new users? -mel
[2004-11-09 16:36:39] - oooh. cool. gotta download it. -mel
[2004-11-09 15:58:49] - they released it already? it's early! even if you count the timezone. ~a
[2004-11-09 15:48:28] - *** pierce is off again!
[2004-11-09 15:48:05] - I am not the equal of firefox. - pierce
[2004-11-09 15:47:48] - - pierce, that is. - pierce
[2004-11-09 15:47:40] - In case you all didn't know (sorry if it's been posted already), Firefox 1.0 has been released. http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ = pierce
[2004-11-09 15:15:38] - Vinnie: Sketchier? Did you intentionally use the exact same word Mel used? For whatever reason I see Pickles and Olives as not being particularly good for you (I think it's because of the sodium, like you say). -Paul
[2004-11-09 15:08:46] - a: nope. I said what I meant
- vinnie[2004-11-09 15:01:35] - vinnie: i think you meant grain of salt ~a
[2004-11-09 15:00:55] - I am no expert though so take what I have to say with a grain of saturated fat - vinnie
[2004-11-09 15:00:29] - pickles and olives are a little bit sketchier (salt, I think?) but I think still much healthier than many of the sauces you could put on your sub. And almost any Subway sub seems to be magnitudes lower in saturated fat than McDonalds or any of those places. that can't hurt - vinnie
[2004-11-09 14:57:53] - antialiasing and ray tracing is really messed up if you can do it WITHOUT RESERVED WORDS. ~a
[2004-11-09 14:57:00] - wowee. this super tiny program: http://www.tw.ioccc.org/2004/gavare.c made this REALLY REALLY cool picture (when i converted it to a png): http://aporter.org/pics/tmp/ioccc_ray.png ~a
[2004-11-09 14:14:58] - Mel: Glad to hear that things are looking up. -Paul
[2004-11-09 14:10:27] - Paul: So now I walk to anyplace I can instead of driving. I started doing some yoga, and I am sitting better at work now, which made the back pain go away. -mel
[2004-11-09 14:09:39] - Paul: I starteed making an effort to walk more. And to have better posture. Thats about it. See my main problems were that I was low on energy all the time, I had lost muscle, and that I was having back pain from sitting all day hunched over the computer. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:57:26] - Mel: Cool. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:51:53] - Paul: both... -mel
[2004-11-09 13:46:30] - Mel: Is it just eating better, or have you started exercising or made other lifestyle changes? -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:44:27] - a: I know. Thats an art in and of itself.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:44:04] - Paul: They are both bad. I ddidn't like the way I started looking after having a desk job. I have been eating better for about maybe 1 month now though and I definitely feel the differences. Thats around the time I started coming back to the message board again too. I think I hit some kind of low point. Eating better has improved my mood. -me
[2004-11-09 13:42:35] - mel: that's rarely the point of IOCCC or signatures. the point is to be unreadable and pretty and super uber compressed. ~a
[2004-11-09 13:41:51] - a: definitely concise.
See, I try to make my code easy to understand. -mel[2004-11-09 13:39:56] - Mel: I don't get less hungry when I'm just sitting at my desk all day, which is almost as bad. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:39:50] - Paul: I'm having trouble finding nutritional info I am satisfied with. I'll post soemthing later. I have a book at home that i got at borders that is all about vegetables and it quantifies their nutritional content (g, mg, etc of vitamins & minerals) Maybe you coudl get soemthing like that. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:38:49] - of course i like the last two the best. ~a
[2004-11-09 13:38:02] - mel: these are the best i can do: http://aporter.org/me/sig/ ~a
[2004-11-09 13:37:29] - a: I think my code is pretty, although I know I am biased.
For me, the beauty has a lot to do with how efficient it is, how the spacing/braces and stuff look, how concisely it, is written, etc. -mel[2004-11-09 13:35:36] - paul: i dunno. they're pretty though. i wish i could write code like that. ~a
[2004-11-09 13:35:15] - mel: probably some of both. here's another one http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2004/vik2.c . ~a
[2004-11-09 13:35:01] - Paul: I know. Well I started paying more attention after I realized I had lost energy and also lost muscle. Sitting at the desk all day makes me less hungry and I started not liking the effects I was feeling. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:34:09] - Paul: I know olives are high in iron.... hold on thought, I want to get more specific info -mel
[2004-11-09 13:33:15] - I just assume that I have enough balance of nutrients in my diet although I have no real way of knowing. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:31:53] - a: What are those things supposed to be pictures of? -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:31:14] - a: haha. wow. are those generated by hand, or automated? -mel
[2004-11-09 13:31:05] - Mel: I don't really have a focus other than to increase my good cholesterol and decrease my bad cholesterol and as far as I can tell exercise is the best way to do that. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:30:25] - Paul: hmm, good question, I don't know about pickles and olives, those are sketchier... I don't know. Let me see if I can find some info... -mel
[2004-11-09 13:29:26] - Paul: I was feeling low on energy and my sister just found out she was anemic (not enough iron in her diet), which is why she was feeling tired. Thats why I've been worrying about protein and iron. Oh and calcium, but thats mostly because I'm a girl.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:28:51] - Mel: I guess that was essentially my question, can you go wrong with just getting all of the vegetables on your sub or is it a good idea to hold off on some, like pickles and olives. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:28:19] - Paul: I know your focus will be different from me though. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:28:17] - so pretty: http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2004/omoikane.c and http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2004/newbern.c ~a
[2004-11-09 13:27:49] - I haven't gotten too far yet though. For now I was focusing on protein and iron. So I read a lot of detailed info on protein and iron and found out what foods are high in protein and iron. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:26:42] - Paul: One of my big goals recently is to eat healthier. I haven
[2004-11-09 13:26:00] - Paul: but in general, you probably can't go wrong with any of the veggies. It would be useful to know exactly what vitamins you are getting from each veggie though, wouldn't it? Maybe you can find more general info somewhere. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:25:39] - Mel: I can't really fault them for the lack of detail since the chart they have is probably more detailed than most people want. I just wish I knew more about what things were healthy for you and what things aren't. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:24:08] - So I read your post, and I think the Subway nutritional chart could use some more detail... -mel
[2004-11-09 13:23:08] - Mel: It's an AIM smiley. Created using : - X without the spaces. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:21:26] - Paul: excellent. so we agree on something -mel
[2004-11-09 13:21:11] - I've never seen that smiley (that isn't really a smiley) before. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:21:07] - Mel: Hell no. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:20:48] - haha. I like the title.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:20:04] - Paul: want to debate that??
j/k -mel[2004-11-09 13:19:49] - Paul: and no, I still think I was also being oversensitive. so there.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:19:10] - Paul: like you aren't trying to understand what I am saying, just attack it. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:18:52] - Paul: typo -mel
[2004-11-09 13:18:35] - Paul: also, it often feels to me like you are trying to understand what I am saying, just attack it. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:18:00] - Mel: I know, I'm sorry. It's not your fault for being oversensitive, it's mine for being overly critical. There is no need for progress on your end, I think I have the problem solved on mine. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:17:44] - Paul: I am rarely offended by people's positions (which you mentioned below as a reson you don't post your opinions) -mel
[2004-11-09 13:16:47] - Paul: I like talking to you in general. but I do find it frustrating when you don't post your own position because it feels to me like all you are doing is attacking me, instead of it being some sort of dialogue. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:15:13] - pierce: I hope so.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:15:05] - Paul=
-mel[2004-11-09 13:14:49] - mel: thanks. ttyl. - pierce
[2004-11-09 13:14:47] - Paul: Haha!! Nice smiley. veryb quality. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:14:34] - pierce: yes, I think so. If I have to go somewhere, I'll post and let you know. -mel
[2004-11-09 13:13:59] - Mel: Please, don't let me stop you. I promise to keep my mouth shut while you two talk so I won't make you mad.
-Paul[2004-11-09 13:13:49] - pierce: ps. I was amused by your header=heard switch. I laughed out loud.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:13:23] - adrian! - pierce
[2004-11-09 13:13:01] - dammit
[2004-11-09 13:12:55] - Paul: touché. - pierce
[2004-11-09 13:12:26] - I'll probably be back around 5ish EST, mel. You still going to be around? - pierce
[2004-11-09 13:12:21] - pierce: Its probably better I didn't weigh in, because I seem to have a tendency to get oversensitive when arguring with Paul. But I am startign to get a better idea of why, which is some progress on my end.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:11:36] - Pierce: Nor has it ever stopped you. -Paul
[2004-11-09 13:10:55] - I am a lazy bum, so I just got to work.
come back later if you have a chance (after you get some work done) and we can talk. -mel[2004-11-09 13:09:42] - awww, it's too bad you're joining in just as things trickle down (and as I have to get back to work), Mel. I'd like to (interactively) hear where you weigh in on the subject. - pierce
[2004-11-09 13:08:01] - just in case you guys want my 2 cents...
-mel[2004-11-09 13:07:26] - haha. I see it as sign of progress.
-mel[2004-11-09 13:02:31] - That rarely seems to have stopped you before. - pierce
[2004-11-09 13:01:58] - Pierce: Or maybe just a sign that I need to get work done.
-Paul[2004-11-09 12:59:54] - Paul: you didn't present an opposing argument solely for the sake of presenting an opposing argument. That's progress in itself. - pierce
[2004-11-09 12:58:52] - Pierce: I don't see what you're so happy about, I never said I agreed.
-Paul[2004-11-09 12:57:10] - dammit, header=heard. Stupid me for programming a web application and debating on the message board at the same time. - pierce
[2004-11-09 12:56:37] -
- pierce[2004-11-09 12:56:31] - Paul: I'm not sure I header you correctly... come again? - pierce
[2004-11-09 12:52:40] - Pierce: Ok. -Paul
[2004-11-09 12:46:55] - the former two categories are presented as fact, because we can discover mistakes and correct them as we go along. The latter two are fuzzy, and so they're not represented as absolute truth (and if they are, they shouldn't be). - pierce
[2004-11-09 12:45:11] - However, academia has different contexts: that which is true by definition (math, computer science), that which is "true" by observation and falsifiable theories (sciences), that which is analysis which is based on observation but not disproveable (history, comparative religion), and that which is culturally significant (art, literature). - pierce
[2004-11-09 12:43:16] - Pierce: Would you want to do the same thing with evolution? -Paul
[2004-11-09 12:42:34] - We can't pretend that religion doesn't exist for the purposes of academia, nor do I think it would be beneficial to do so even if we could. - pierce
[2004-11-09 12:34:25] - Similarly, it's possible to teach students what creationism is, and why and how many people believe it, without presenting it as a true (specifically, scientifically valid) theory. - pierce
[2004-11-09 12:34:18] - i.e. in english class. ~a
[2004-11-09 12:33:51] - creationism was taught at tj. ~a
[2004-11-09 12:33:02] - Paul: there's a difference between teaching something and teaching about something. For example, I don't think teaching about Martin Luther and the origins of protestantism is a violation of the establishment clause, because it's not teaching that those beliefs are true, simply that they have social contexts and consequences. - pierce
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