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[2005-05-13 13:50:10] - aba: You could probably easily get yourself a copy of it through an emulator or something. -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:50:02] - wait wait, was wiki confusing me with quoting mB and mbit? ~a
[2005-05-13 13:48:24] - a: Looks like it. And now that you say that, it makes a lot of sense because more information would need to be read at a time for an HD output. -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:46:49] - it seems like blue ray is faster. ~a
[2005-05-13 13:46:37] - aaron: yeah, that was cute too. i miss that game.
- aba[2005-05-13 13:46:22] - dvd: 16x speed designation allows a data transfer rate of 16 x 1350 = 21600 kB/s (21.09 MB/s). blue ray: 36 mbit/s (54mbit/s for bd rom), 2x speed prototypes with a 72 Mbit/s transfer rate are now in development. (The average speed of the drive ... equals to only about 50-70% of the maximum nominated speed) ~a
[2005-05-13 13:45:09] - aba: Did you see him wearing the giant shoe? - aaron
[2005-05-13 13:45:02] - a: As for the access time, I have no idea. I think Blu-ray is supposed to be about the same speed as a regular DVD (which is impressive considering it's got a higher density) but I don't think it's supposed to be much faster. -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:43:49] - a: Normally I would agree that size doesn't matter much, but if the games are going to all be in HD, then I wonder how possible it is to fit a decent sized HD game on a regular DVD. -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:42:41] - paul: i think in this case, size shouldn't matter. whether they can fit 8 gigs or 80 gigs, i don't care. what i would really care about is speed of loading from the disc; because that seems to be a bottleneck on the ps2 (with my VERY limited time spent on one). are blue-rays faster than dvds (in bits per second)? ~a
[2005-05-13 13:39:35] - aba: Yeah, that probably was the cutest power up in the game. The frog suit was pretty cute/goofy too though. -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:38:37] - Dave: It sounds like the Xbox 360 is going to use a plain old DVD drive. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but it does seem a little disappointing considering it sounds like Sony is going to support Blu-Ray with their next system. -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:36:12] - paul: yes!! - aba
[2005-05-13 13:12:37] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tanooki.gif -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:11:33] - aba: You mean the tanuki suit in Super Mario Brothers 3? -Paul
[2005-05-13 13:10:53] - Aaron: Stuffed pigs appearing everywhere? -Paul
[2005-05-13 12:42:02] - mario in the bear suit was the cutest - aba
[2005-05-13 12:33:53] - paul: I would at least expect fish in bear suits taking over tokyo - aaron
[2005-05-13 12:20:10] - Aaron: So it would seem. I guess intervening to stop the terrible effects of the y2k bug cause a huge ripple in the space-time continuum. I'm just surprised the Nazis didn't take over the world. -Paul
[2005-05-13 12:18:41] - paul: He must have had a profound effect on the world then - aaron
[2005-05-13 12:15:17] - Aaron: Sounds like his predictions are coming apart. -Paul
[2005-05-13 11:53:03] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor Biography on John Titor, an alleged time traveller - aaron
[2005-05-13 11:47:57] - aba: If I recall correctly, it was already starting to be drama city while we were still there. I'm not surprised at all they dropped the requirement. -Paul
[2005-05-13 11:45:49] - paul: from what i gather, he is going to be a grad student..... although i think they suspended the freshman living on campus shortly after we joined. they had too many freshman being doubled up with RAs and not having spots open up quickly enough. drama city. - aba
[2005-05-13 11:36:33] - a: i'd hardly call that a failure though... it looks like that party was a hell of a lot of fun. i'd like to have gone .) -amy
[2005-05-13 11:35:57] - aba: Don't think I can help since he probably isn't interested in a 4 bedroom apartment. I thought freshmen were required to live on campus... -Paul
[2005-05-13 11:30:09] - in case anyone wants to add their advice: http://www.livejournal.com/community/tjpeople/426536.html - aba
[2005-05-13 11:28:17] - i guess we didn't advertise it well enough. ~a
[2005-05-13 11:23:41] - amy: http://web.mit.edu/adorai/timetraveler/ - vinnie
[2005-05-13 11:16:42] - hey how did that whole time-traveler's convention go? did anyone ever find out? .) -amy
[2005-05-13 11:00:38] - Dave:
-Paul[2005-05-13 10:56:33] - arrrhh, that quick Paul -dave
[2005-05-13 10:56:08] - aaron: May 17-20? mebbe -dave
[2005-05-13 10:55:51] - Aaron: http://www.e3expo.com/index.asp -Paul
[2005-05-13 10:55:29] - Aaron: I read somewhere that Sony and Nintendo are supposed to release more details about their console next week. Maybe that is when E3 is? -Paul
[2005-05-13 10:53:15] - paul: I think some nintendo person leaked something about "touching is good, but feeling is better..." When is E3 anyways? Some time soon? - aaron
[2005-05-13 10:52:38] - paul: Honestly i'm pretty impressed too. If the games target my interests a little better then maybe I'll pick one up. From the buzz, I think i've heard Nintendo's next console is going to have some strange gimmick like the DS - aaron
[2005-05-13 10:38:34] - Dave: I don't know about anybody else, but after reading that article, I'm pretty excited about the Xbox 360. I guess we'll have to see what Sony and Nintendo can do now. -Paul
[2005-05-13 10:32:05] - Dave: Oh, I guess you were more answering Aaron's question there. I just figured they used water because it was cheap.
-Paul[2005-05-13 10:27:34] - Paul: that and it might not be practical to put a compressor and stuff into a small box like that -dave
[2005-05-13 10:26:57] - Paul: But I think the reasons I gave (temperature difference) for using water instead of that are probably still true -dave
[2005-05-13 10:25:53] - Paul: You're right. according to my coworker, they compress and expand the fluid. So the water-cooling stuff is nothing like it -dave
[2005-05-13 10:24:08] - Dave: I thought a refrigerator was a fundamentally different system. Doesn't a refrigerator have a compressor and everything to essentially work like an air conditioner? -Paul
[2005-05-13 10:23:49] - Paul: from my limited knowledge of the process, the hard part for refr./aircon is to get the heat from the environment into the medium (antifreeze or whatever it is now). After they do that, the temp. difference is large so that the heat expels fairly easily methinks? -dave
[2005-05-13 10:21:25] - Paul: I dunno. Mebbe they just run it along a wide surface area in a different region. How do air-conditioners and refrigerators work? Don't they just run it through a system of small pipes and blow air on it? -dave
[2005-05-13 10:20:01] - Dave: Ah, ok. How do they expel the heat from the water?
-Paul[2005-05-13 10:18:34] - paul: sorry, expel the heat from the water -dave
[2005-05-13 10:18:20] - aaron: that's just my guess at the reasons tho -dave
[2005-05-13 10:18:19] - Dave: The water is expelled? I thought it was a closed system... -Paul
[2005-05-13 10:18:07] - aaron: with the CPU/GPU, those are probably running at an extremely higher temperature difference (with the air). I wouldn't be surprised to see 50-60F temp difference between the chip and the ambient -dave
[2005-05-13 10:17:05] - aaron: I don't think the watercooling is as active / efficient as that of a refrigerator. Like I think they just run the water close to the heat sinks and then expel it at some exhaust point. I would imagine the difference is that with air-conditioners / refrigerators, you are dealing with a low temperature difference... -dave
[2005-05-13 10:12:41] - Paul: Yeah I agree. I wouldn't have thought they'd stick a triple-core processor in one either. -dave
[2005-05-13 10:06:36] - Dave: I suppose so. I just thought that water cooling was one of those "cool but not entirely practical" things that hardcore PC people did. I never expected to see it pop up in a console. -Paul
[2005-05-13 10:04:59] - dave: What does water-cooling exactly entail? Is it like a refrigerator where you have a heat pump? If it's working like a heat pump, then why is water the best element to use? It seems like other elements could withstand a greater range of temperatures - aaron
[2005-05-13 10:01:30] - Paul: Yeah, well think about it, they stuck a triple-core processor in it. The only desktop multi-core processors available right now only are dual, so they're really putting serious hardware into the thing -dave
[2005-05-13 09:56:52] - Aaron: Yeah, it probably would be just as good as dying in your sleep or something. -Paul
[2005-05-13 09:48:22] - :%s/least//g - aaron
[2005-05-13 09:47:35] - paul: At first I was thinking, "wow that must be the worst way to die" but yeah - when you think of all of your organs including your brain essentially exploding simultaneously, it would probably be one of the least painless ways of dying. Plus you totally wouldn't see it coming - aaron
[2005-05-13 09:45:12] - Aaron: Sounds painful (even though the article says that it probably wasn't). -Paul
[2005-05-13 09:43:55] - Dave: A water cooled console? Maybe it's just me, but that sound incredibly awesome. -Paul
[2005-05-13 09:26:12] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin this was on wikipedia's main page today - a horrible gruesome diving death which caused a man to literally explode (from a high pressure gradient) - aaron
[2005-05-13 09:15:43] - http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/05/12/apontv.star.trek.ap/index.html Enterprise to go off air Friday -dave
[2005-05-13 08:56:53] - mig: I see ^_^ -dave
[2005-05-13 08:54:14] - dave: well it is
just not for the reasons you might think it is. - mig[2005-05-13 08:45:30] - mig: Yeah, I guess. I just have this notion of people touting open-source as the silver bullet for all things security and otherwise, and IMO it isn't (not that it doesn't have its positives) -dave
[2005-05-13 08:41:38] - dave: nobody i know has ever said that open source projects are invunerable to security holes. the argument actually is that when security holes are found, they get plugged much more quickly than their proprietary software counterparts. - mig
[2005-05-13 08:13:26] - that from http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1815205,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03119TX1K0000594 -dave
[2005-05-13 08:13:12] - Not that I think IE has better security, but "Security updates are getting to be a common occurrence with Firefox and Mozilla. This update is the fourth addressing 32 security holes in 2005" shows that open-source projects are fairly vulnerable too -dave
[2005-05-13 08:10:06] - http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050512_142241.html Microsoft's Rise of Nations to support Ageia's physics chip -dave
[2005-05-13 07:43:02] - committee -dave
[2005-05-13 07:42:44] - aba: he's getting an up or down vote in the Senate, but wasn't endorsed by the committiee -dave
[2005-05-13 07:41:35] - and all games are HDTV compatible -dave
[2005-05-13 07:41:07] - http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2414 Xbox 360 debut. Triple-core PowerPC w/water-cooling. Wireless controllers. -dave
[2005-05-12 21:22:53] - aba: And this is exciting news? -Paul
[2005-05-12 19:20:34] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4539623.stm looks like john bolton may be out of the running! - aba
[2005-05-12 17:05:03] - a: I can give a proof by example that songs don't have to have an ending. Make amy a song! - aaron
[2005-05-12 16:58:40] - it's a recursive proof. that song can't exist either. ~a
[2005-05-12 16:53:58] - a: well... sing the proof .p -amy
[2005-05-12 16:40:21] - i can't prove that i can write a song about the halting problem. quite the contrary; i can prove that such a song can't exist. ~a
[2005-05-12 16:38:38] - a: so you proved you are dorky... now quick! make a song about data structures or the halting problem and sing it for us!! -amy
[2005-05-12 16:38:00] - a: thank you?? .) -amy
[2005-05-12 16:37:49] - a: ...guh? .) -amy
[2005-05-12 16:37:30] - amy: that was in response to "maybe you guys aren't dorky enough" . . . and yes i'm ignoring pierce. i'll also give you as much octal as i know: 3.11037552421026430 ~a
[2005-05-12 16:33:45] - amy: 3.243f6a8885a30 ~a
[2005-05-12 16:29:44] - ...as i typed that i just remembered that i did something very similar... except the song was about operating systems rather than discrete math. sigh. i guess i really won't make it as a rock star .( -amy
[2005-05-12 16:29:14] - pierce: actually the lead singer/TA was very good, i think he was in a real a capella group on campus. (plus he was um, good-looking). but no, anybody dorky enough to sing a song about discrete math in a CS lecture will probably not make it as a rock star -amy
[2005-05-12 16:23:31] - but seriously amy, don't go there. don't even go there.
- pierce[2005-05-12 16:23:03] - a: would you really have wanted that? there's usually a reason these TAs are not going on to successful musical careers.
- pierce[2005-05-12 16:17:57] - a: well... maybe you guys aren't dorky enough!! -amy
[2005-05-12 16:14:22] - how come stuff like that never happens at vt? ~a
[2005-05-12 16:09:39] - amy: ^_^ -dave
[2005-05-12 16:08:11] - Reminds me of the CS lecture in which my TAs got up and sang (a capella) "Find the Longest Path" to the tune of "For the Longest Time." -amy
[2005-05-12 16:01:16] - http://www.collegehumor.com/?movie_id=149448 -dave
[2005-05-12 15:25:57] - do do doo, do do doo - paula cole
[2005-05-12 15:11:16] - where have all, the commas gone? ~a
[2005-05-12 15:02:27] - I'm nearly positive there was a comma in there when I posted that.
- pierce[2005-05-12 15:02:04] - a: thank you that's correct. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:51:30] - aaron: i'm not actually sure, but i think pierce was maybe referring to a simmilar question that can't be answered: "when did you stop beating your wife?" ~a
[2005-05-12 14:49:48] - pierce: Is that a reference to that "things my wife and i argue about" site or are you being weird? - aaron
[2005-05-12 14:43:29] - aaron: maybe if you'd stop beating your wife for five minutes we could tell you the proper response.
- pierce[2005-05-12 14:42:24] - Dave: I dunno, it's a big (400 question) Zogby poll that they sent me about consumer profiles. -Paul
[2005-05-12 14:41:23] - Heheheh..... Is there any non-awkward way to respond to the question, "Do you really think i'm that stupid?" If so i need to learn it - aaron
[2005-05-12 14:41:11] - Paul: what on earth are you taking it for? 0_o -dave
[2005-05-12 14:40:22] - It's actually worse than that, I have to rate it on a scale from 1-5 in terms of agreeing or disagreeing. -paul
[2005-05-12 14:39:54] - btw, I am taking quite possibly the most useless survey ever. Not only have I been asked about which planet people think I am from (one option was "simply Uranus"), but I'm also asked questions like: "The pedigree dog or cat just gives me pleasure" Agree or disagree? -Paul
[2005-05-12 14:39:20] - Pierce: Like porn is frowned on and regarded as a sin (to watch), so everything in that area is generally approached with ickiness -dave
[2005-05-12 14:38:33] - Pierce: They find it icky probably for the same reasons many conservatives/christians find detailed talk about anything sexual, icky -dave
[2005-05-12 14:38:11] - So maybe it has something to do with guys who just think the naked male body is icky. -Paul
[2005-05-12 14:37:32] - Because it seems like the stereotype is that most people who think homosexuality are guys and that most of them don't think lesbians are icky. -Paul
[2005-05-12 14:36:56] - Pierce: Oh, and I don't know if I can quite explain why some people feel it's "icky". I think it might have something to do with guys just not being comfortable with the naked male body. -Paul
[2005-05-12 14:36:29] - we don't call people who hate asians asian-phobes. we just call them bigots. ~a
[2005-05-12 14:35:44] - a: Well, doesn't it mean somebody fears homosexuals? I think the term is often misapplied if that's the case. -Paul
[2005-05-12 14:35:33] - Pierce: My objection to it stems from my religious beliefs, which are a fairly integral part of who I am. Whether you consider that personal or not, I dunno -dave
[2005-05-12 14:34:41] - homophobe is such a stupid term anyways. ~a
[2005-05-12 14:34:40] - dave: besides, if you do object to it, I suspect it would be on aforementioned religious grounds. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:34:03] - dave: well, that fits because I wouldn't really classify you as a "homophobe", regardless of whether you have a personal objection to it or not (which I don't know for sure). - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:32:39] - Pierce: I actually don't find it icky. -dave
[2005-05-12 14:32:19] - Paul: because Dave is trying to get some work done -dave
[2005-05-12 14:31:38] - Why do I get the feeling Dave is going to disappear now?
-Paul[2005-05-12 14:27:16] - what's the deal with homophobia anyway? I mean, other than people for whom it's a religious belief (which I can explain if not understand), why do people find it "icky"? Paul+Dave: you were talking yesterday about my not understanding the conservative mind, well here's something I don't understand. Enlighten me. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:19:54] - aaron: yeah, the thing that "affected" him in a direct way was being made to attend the session and read the email, which he didn't want to do -dave
[2005-05-12 14:09:44] - dave: And again i understand this is all just arguments for arguments sake so I'm not taking anything you're saying personally, so don't worry about that - aaron
[2005-05-12 14:09:11] - I think an argument could be made that this person's mass e-mail was reactionary in a similar way but personally I think that's a stretch, since coworkers being homosexual isn't something that affects him in a direct way - aaron
[2005-05-12 14:07:56] - dave: Or smoking, like if someone started smoking in my office or something I'd probably be like "Please don't smoke in my office, I find it rude" and I think that would be fine because it's affecting me in a direct way, and i'm taking action. - aaron
[2005-05-12 14:05:12] - aaron: that would be crossing a line *nod* *nod* -dave
[2005-05-12 14:03:34] - dave: No no, I wasn't offended about anything - I meant in general, at work, you could disapprove of someone being a prostitute, but if you start calling her names at work then you're crossing a line - aaron
[2005-05-12 14:02:53] - dave: i forget. ~a
[2005-05-12 14:02:33] - it wasn't supposed to be a challenge to anyone, it was just an observation. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:02:14] - a: I made the point I wanted to make, what did you want to hear? 0_o -dave
[2005-05-12 14:01:50] - a: in fact, I said the opposite. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:01:37] - a: I didn't say you can't. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:00:51] - pierce: yeah, that is pretty inconsistent that yout can ask people what they think and i can't. ~a
[2005-05-12 14:00:37] - Paul: yes, I know what you're thinking about but I never said you have to, I was just curious. Like adrian. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:00:03] - a: you certainly may. - pierce
[2005-05-12 14:00:02] - Pierce: Wait, you're saying somebody shouldn't have to say what they really think?
-Paul[2005-05-12 13:59:41] - *** dave signs
[2005-05-12 13:59:38] - pierce: oh, sure. -dave
[2005-05-12 13:59:15] - pierce: i can't be curious? ~a
[2005-05-12 13:59:05] - dave: "I wasn't really trying to say anything particularly about homosexuality" - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:58:44] - ehh, I don't think dave should have to give his personal opinion on this. His opinion is his opinion, and if he feels like sharing it he will. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:58:24] - pierce: what statement to what effect? About killing Christians? -dave
[2005-05-12 13:57:23] -
- pierce[2005-05-12 13:57:23] - dave: well then tell us what you think (instead of arguing the general case) ~a
[2005-05-12 13:57:20] - dave: would you be willing to sign this statement to that effect, or should we terminate you from the message board? - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:56:40] - aaron: at any rate, I'm sorry if you got offended with anything I said. I wasn't really trying to say anything particularly about homosexuality -dave
[2005-05-12 13:56:16] - maybe s/yesterday\'s conversation/"your mom"/eiiiiiiiii ~a
[2005-05-12 13:55:48] - i don't think "o" or "h" is suitable there. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:55:23] - a: s/yesterday\'s conversation/your mom/ohhhhhh - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:55:02] - pierce: not necessarily. the basis of law should be whatever the people of the nation decide. If everyone decides in that country to kill Christians, then hey, make it a law -dave
[2005-05-12 13:54:20] - dave: there, you and I agree. where we differ is whose lines we find more arbitrary in today's society.
- pierce[2005-05-12 13:53:40] - pierce: we've already hit on yesterdays conversation a few times. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:53:36] - pierce: I agree. I'm just saying that just because you think the line should be drawn in one place doesn't mean that that's the place to draw it, or where other people might think it should be drawn -dave
[2005-05-12 13:53:19] - dave: which brings us full circle from yesterday's conversation. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:52:51] - dave: which is why the basis of law should be logic, rather than religion... because logic is a better heuristic. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:52:40] - hey. before aaron and pierce showed up, it was everybody on adrian. i guess back then i was kind of egging you on though. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:52:17] - dave: which is why we try to develop heuristics for finding the least arbitrary lines. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:51:47] - *** Paul is glad everybody is ganging up on Dave instead of Paul for once.
[2005-05-12 13:51:43] - dave: well of course, because neither extreme (allowing everything or allowing nothing) is acceptable. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:51:17] - aaron: Yeah, I entirely agree with you. People shouldn't do that at all. I suppose I should have picked something other than homosexuality to make my point, but it was in the article -dave
[2005-05-12 13:51:00] - prostitution does hurt people in it's regular form (women strolling around on the street harassing poor innocent single men
) ~a[2005-05-12 13:50:31] - pierce: I'm saying that the "line" that decides what actions to tolerate (sexual activity, teaching creationism in schools, shooting other people) is arbitrary. Some things we decide to allow and others not -dave
[2005-05-12 13:50:09] - quit with the general cases and argue what you actually believe
~a[2005-05-12 13:49:46] - dave: And it's okay to disapprove of the gay lifestyle, but you shouldn't deliberately insult them in their workplace by telling them they are disgusting - aaron
[2005-05-12 13:48:50] - a: Sorry, I'm not trying to argue that homosexuality in particular shouldn't be tolerated. I'm trying to make a more general case. Like say prostitution. It doesn't really hurt anyone does it? But we don't tolerate it -dave
[2005-05-12 13:48:43] - dave: I don't think the line between beliefs and actions is arbitrary, or are you talking about a different line? - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:48:40] - a: I think the issue is being a little confused here. Homosexuality might not hurt anybody, but the company's attempt to force acceptance of it probably hurt the employee as much as his words hurt any gay employees. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:47:36] - pierce: for example "caring about their actual sexual practice" being none of my business is arbitary. Almost everyone would agree with it, but it's an arbitrary line just the same. It could just as easily be drawn somewhere else. -dave
[2005-05-12 13:46:54] - dave: "people who make too much noise in their apartments...drunks walking around in public...teaching creationism in schools" all of these things you listed are things that hurt other people. esp the last one (j/k). how does homosexuality hurt other people? ~a
[2005-05-12 13:46:41] - pierce: That may be true, but my point isn't about the gay thing in particular, it's about the general tolerance thing. My point is, that there are some things you don't tolerate, and that line is arbitrary -dave
[2005-05-12 13:45:14] - dave: correct. but then on a different level, caring about their actual sexual practices is just none of your business. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:45:11] - a: What's implied? -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:45:03] - aaron: right, I was using an extreme case where the practice was something everyone agrees is wrong. But it doesn't have to be, e.g. the gay lifestyle -dave
[2005-05-12 13:44:40] - Pierce: Probably right. I just don't like it when it crosses the line and starts telling me how to be more tolerant and accepting. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:44:08] - Pierce: so we can tolerate gays by believing they need to sleep with the same sex, but not tolerate their actions? -dave
[2005-05-12 13:43:29] - dave: You can still disapprove of them. If they're breaking the law then that's another issue though - aaron
[2005-05-12 13:43:13] - a: otherwise, you are not tolerating or allowing their religious practice. -dave
[2005-05-12 13:43:13] - paul: i think it's implied. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:43:00] - dave: no, you'd have to tolerate people that believe they need to kill people. You don't need to tolerate their actions. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:42:52] - a: Right, and I agree that the company has the right to fire whoever they want. I just think it's funny that they make a big deal about tolerance when they clearly cannot tolerate somebody saying that they find homosexuality repulsive. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:42:21] - Paul: I think a lot of companies do it as a way of reminding people that they won't tolerate things like sexual harassment, racial jokes, or anything like that in the workplace. - pierce
[2005-05-12 13:42:17] - a: well, it's true that it depends on what you mean by tolerance. My example was, religion X dictates that their members need to kill people. To tolerate that religion it seems like you would have to tolerate the killings -dave
[2005-05-12 13:40:17] - paul: that's the companies decision though. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:39:51] - aaron: yes i'm assuming that's where YOU got it from. i got it from you just now.
~a[2005-05-12 13:39:35] - Pierce: I know you were joking, but I actually do hate it when I receive company wide emails reminding me to be tolerant. I'll be tolerant of whoever the hell I want, I don't want the company telling me who to tolerate. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:39:29] - Paul: *nod* -dave
[2005-05-12 13:39:16] - a: South park? - aaron
[2005-05-12 13:38:37] - "My point was that being tolerant of one religion can be mutually exclusive with being tolerant to another" this isn't true. agreement with one religion might be mutually exclusive with agreement with another religion. tolerance is another matter. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:38:37] - Dave: Right. I would think that true tolerance would mean that the company tolerated gays, the gays and the company tolerated that employee, and the employee tolerated the gays. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:37:19] - a: and where did I mix up the two? -dave
[2005-05-12 13:37:14] - It's possible this guy isn't even a homophobe... maybe he finds mass-mailed corporate policies disgusting.
- pierce[2005-05-12 13:37:13] - I mean, if I said that I refused to be friends with anybody who doesn't like Muslims, isn't that a bit intolerant on my part? -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:37:12] - although i guess i see your point that we don't really tollerate everything that's not intollerance. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:36:54] - Paul: right, but then (again not that I think this is right) the gay people in that company should tolerate discrimination against them, and the religious people should tolerate the presence of those people -dave
[2005-05-12 13:35:44] - you can tolerate something you disagree with. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:35:34] - dave: again, don't confuse agreement and tolerance. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:35:33] - mig: I mean, if you were tolerating his religion, shouldn't he be able to opt-out of the acceptance program? Not that I advocate it, I'm just saying you can't be tolerant of everything, and that you inherently choose some things to be tolerant of, over others -dave
[2005-05-12 13:35:31] - ah. yes, i'm in agreement with that. - mig
[2005-05-12 13:35:07] - It seems to me that a truly tolerant person should tolerate things even if they don't like it. It's kinda like free speech in that way. It's meaningless unless it applies to things that you don't like. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:34:37] - mig: and by extension, that being tolerant of some things (in this case the gay acceptance program) could potentially be intolerant of the guy's religious beliefs -dave
[2005-05-12 13:33:43] - mig: I never said it did. My point was that being tolerant of one religion can be mutually exclusive with being tolerant to another -dave
[2005-05-12 13:33:11] - a: intolerant of people taking illegal drugs, intolerant of people exposing themselves in public, tons of things -dave
[2005-05-12 13:32:40] - Aaron: Right, but if you then beat up the person who said that to you, could you claim to be a tolerant person? -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:32:38] - dave: hmmm. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:32:03] - dave: the bible says we should stone children that don't respect their parents. it's not like the koran has a monopoly on that sort of thing. - mig
[2005-05-12 13:32:01] - a: we're tolerant of plenty of intolerant things (as a society). We're intolerant of people who make too much noise in their apartments, intolerant of drunks walking around in public, intolerant of teaching creationism in schools, etc etc -dave
[2005-05-12 13:30:48] - right. i have nothing to add to that. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:29:53] - paul: Disagreeing with someone isn't being intolerant. I never told any bush voters "I think your views are disgusting and I would prefer you not to mention them to me again" - aaron
[2005-05-12 13:29:24] - a: see, but you're just basing that off of what you think should, or shouldn't be tolerated. Granted, most people would agree with you, but that's still making an arbitrary decision -dave
[2005-05-12 13:29:00] - dave: we'll decide to only be intolerant of intolerance (except the intolerance of intolerance). ~a
[2005-05-12 13:28:54] - a: So by that reasoning, is it perfectly tolerant to hate anybody who voted for Kerry because people who voted for Kerry were intolerant of the other candidates? -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:28:14] - dave: if there was a gay community that was for the destruction of all heterosexuals, then i think we could safely be intolerant of their goal. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:27:55] - a: well, but see, then who picks and chooses what things you should be tolerant of, and what not? Then you're, in a sense, automatically choosing one side over the other -dave
[2005-05-12 13:27:36] - Aaron: It's probably common sense, but I think precious few people do it.
-Paul[2005-05-12 13:26:58] - dave: exactly. i don't think "tolerance" (as a word) means you need to tolerate the intolerant parts of the koran. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:25:54] - a: it's not all that surprising that some beliefs or lifestyles would be intolerant of others. The Koran, for one, says some pretty horrible things about what should be done to non-Islamic people -dave
[2005-05-12 13:25:49] - I understand how his beliefs might lead him to view gays as "voluntarily sinful" as opposed to "oppressed minority," but I don't know - Isn't it common sense that if you think there's a chance you might be wrong about something, to take the least abrasive stance possible? - aaron
[2005-05-12 13:24:27] - a: If it means that much to you, I'll try to convince you of what I think but I don't have a lot of time to spend on it. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:24:21] - a: which, you could construe his email as saying -dave
[2005-05-12 13:23:53] - a: yeah, his email wasn't worded very well. Like I said, it would have been more interesting if he had said something like "please exempt me from these activities as my religious beliefs do not allow me to participate in them" -dave
[2005-05-12 13:21:56] - a: that or he could just be saying that his form of arguments don't have an affect on you -dave
[2005-05-12 13:21:31] - a: So it kinda sounds like you agree with me. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:20:56] - a: Uh, I said I wasn't going to be able to convince you. and you followed up with "because i don't concede to yours, i'm inflexible?" -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:20:43] - "I know I'm not going to change your mind in the slightest" ~a
[2005-05-12 13:20:10] - without using the word inflexible? yes, i think you did. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:19:33] - a: Yup, I certainly called you inflexible. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:19:04] - and wnd trying to generate sympathy for this fucknut is the height of hypocracy. if this was a gay man being fire for being pro-gay, then wnd's article would be trashing the guy and defending the company right to hire/fire. - mig
[2005-05-12 13:18:47] - paul: ah. so regardless of how often i concede to other people's points, because i don't concede to yours, i'm inflexible? ~a
[2005-05-12 13:16:19] - regardless, this guy is still a moron. your company sends out a memo and then you reply to everyone who got the memo trashing it. not exactly healthy for your job security, regardless of the topic. - mig
[2005-05-12 13:15:53] - And I think I've changed my mind in the last 24 years. I used to enjoy sucking on my thumb, now it's not so cool. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:15:06] - a: Because I wasn't a part of either of those discussions really.
-Paul[2005-05-12 13:13:32] - "i change my stance" (regarding peta) and "i changed my mind" (regarding exceptions) ~a
[2005-05-12 13:12:59] - keep in mind i've done a 180 on TWO different topics in the last 24 hours. i don't know why YOU think I'M uncomprimising when you haven't changed your mind on anything in the last 24 years. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:10:34] - a: Again, I'm not going to argue the point. You can think what you want, I know I'm not going to change your mind in the slightest. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:06:47] - paul: yeah. usually when people refer to diversity, they're referring to everything except intolerance. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:06:01] - a: Well, I'm not going to argue this with you since it'll just turn into another situation like yesterday, but I totally disagree. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:05:32] - Dave: Yeah, I found it really amusing that they company stressed that "every possible definition of diversity is embraced by Kodak" when they obviously don't embrace diversity of thought. -Paul
[2005-05-12 13:04:30] - hmmm. not really. this is pretty black and white. the guy was being intollerant of gays (or at least saying he wouldn't sign something to that affect). the company was being tolerant of everything except his intolerance. ~a
[2005-05-12 13:00:26] - a: Well, I think you could make the argument that both sides were being equally intolerant. The guy that was fired could claim that the company was causing a hostile work environment because of it sending out emails telling it's employees to support and encourage gay employees. -Paul
[2005-05-12 12:59:41] - paul: yes, "i guess one could guess . . . that other animal shelters are adopting out many more animals, and probably pulling in a somewhat simmilar preportion of health ones." ~a
[2005-05-12 12:58:36] - a: I guess it doesn't say they are healthy. I would need to take a look at the numbers again, but didn't it seem like they were killing a large percentage of the animals? -Paul
[2005-05-12 12:58:19] - amy: enh. ignoring the fact that i eat meat, i'm against the idea of killing animals for food. ~a
[2005-05-12 12:57:26] - a: actually, i would hope that the animals killed for meat are healthy ,) -amy
[2005-05-12 12:50:08] - intolerance is weird. i think usually in this world (whether i agree with it is another matter) people use the word "tolerance" to mean that you're tollerant of everything with the exception of intolerance. ~a
[2005-05-12 12:48:47] - Paul: errr, if it was more clear that he didn't want to participate because of his beliefs -dave
[2005-05-12 12:48:19] - Paul: I think it would be more interesting if there was a clearer line between him saying that he didn't want to participate because of religious beliefs etc -dave
[2005-05-12 12:46:47] - Paul: The Kodak firing is kinda interesting. I don't know if I agree with the guy's email reply, but it's definitely amusing that they won't tolerate him ^_^ -dave
[2005-05-12 12:46:14] - then i change my stance. it's not cool to kill healthy animals (or humans). ~a
[2005-05-12 12:43:57] - a: I mean, 14% vs 66% or 73% is pretty huge. Especially when they are PETA and the other shelters don't claim to treat animals nicely at all -dave
[2005-05-12 12:43:11] - that's what i said
~a[2005-05-12 12:42:42] - a: I think that the sticker is that the two other animal shelters that were listed had drastically higher rates of getting their animals adopted. -dave
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