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[2008-09-04 17:20:03] - >
- aba[2008-09-04 17:15:48] - just don't look at my dvr. ~a
[2008-09-04 17:14:46] - a: am i going to have to hate you too? - aba
[2008-09-04 17:08:20] - jake is no more annoying than wesley. ~a
[2008-09-04 17:06:00] - "pierce: thats how you apologize? if you hadnt added the 'and I apologize' I would never have realized... "
~a[2008-09-04 17:04:47] - I stand by this, though, because I don't think Paul's doing himself or us any favors with his unrealistic (says I) depiction of history. - pierce
[2008-09-04 17:03:14] - ...which is probably more flippant than I intended it. I confess that I don't have the best track record when it comes to keeping these discussions cool and noncombative, and when I feel I've been particularly egregious about it I try to apologize (like a few months back when I called paul "willfully obtuse"). - pierce
[2008-09-04 17:03:00] - pierce: i'd have to agree with pierce on this one. Ron Paul would no doubt be controversial as a president, but I would think he'd make a good one. - mig
[2008-09-04 17:02:15] - a: i hate anyone who thinks that ds9 was the best star trek series ever made. that stupid weenie jake makes my skin crawl. - aba
[2008-09-04 17:00:33] - pierce: not in the least. but it sometimes makes me think about joining the other side of a debate. ~a
[2008-09-04 16:59:07] - aba: you do?
~a[2008-09-04 16:59:03] - a: and this surprises you? - pierce
[2008-09-04 16:58:35] - pierce: but rhetorical flair sometimes comes across as ranting or flaming or just being argumentative. ~a
[2008-09-04 16:57:57] - a: i hate paul. - aba
[2008-09-04 16:54:22] - xpovos: I disagree with that metric. inoffensiveness is not a virtue when the times call for controversial action (which is not to say that controversial actions are intrinsically virtuous... conviction is not a substitute for good judgement /glaresatW). - pierce
[2008-09-04 16:48:10] - xpovos: ah, but hence the value of aggregating the opinions of people who have different arguments to make, as the huffpo article's source did. obviously it can't be a complete cross-section of the political landscape, but it included people who align themselves with both the pro and con versions of each of those arguments. - pierce
[2008-09-04 16:47:29] - Unfortunately, that ends up making the least impressive Presidents de facto the best. Best U.S. President ever: James Garfield. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-04 16:44:42] - I think, instead of trying to rank Presidents by respective 'value' to the people, we ought to rank them by respective controversy levels. The more controversial the President, the less likely it is that the 'good' they did was in fact good for everyone. The presidents most frequently listed as the best are also most frequently the most controversial. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-04 16:43:59] - a: in other words, rhetorical flair. - pierce
[2008-09-04 16:43:13] - a: we all oversimplify from time to time, and it's acceptable to make mistakes, but since I've already called Paul out for oversimplifying this issue it's unacceptable (to me) that he's continuing to do so. - pierce
[2008-09-04 16:42:24] - ... ; and a number of arguments against, which somewhat ironically mirror the positives. Too strong a central government, abandonment of consensus and compromise, trampling of freedom and civil rights. Which side do you pay attention to? Generally, to whichever helps you make your argument. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-04 16:40:21] - pierce: I acknowledge that the Civil War would have in all likelihood happened if Lincoln hadn't been elected. That really wasn't the question, though. The question is, given that Lincoln was President, was his Presidency a good one. There are arguments for that: strong central government authority, Presidential unilateralism, freedom and civil rights ... -- Xpovos
[2008-09-04 16:36:22] - i'm confused by your use of "unacceptable". what about this oversimplification is "unacceptable" compared to any other oversimplification? can't it just be the normal kind? ~a
[2008-09-04 16:24:38] - "they wanted to leave the union peacefully" is an unacceptable oversimplification, and not an especially accurate one at that. - pierce
[2008-09-04 16:23:57] - xpovos: and the issue over here is that the war didn't spring forth fully grown from lincoln's forehead, there was a long and rich history of escalating tensions, a precedent of violence, and if lincoln's election hadn't triggered it then something else easily could have..- pierce
[2008-09-04 15:27:06] - pierce: The issue there is that Lincoln initiated the violence (ticky-tack, Ft. Sumpter technically fired first, but--) where as the Kansas (and elsewhere) issues were essentially riots, not government sponsored violence (aka war). -- Xpovos
[2008-09-04 15:13:33] - Paul: Thank goodness he had polio. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-04 15:12:00] - paul: there certainly was no precedent of violence related to civil war issues prior to lincoln's election. - pierce
[2008-09-04 15:10:04] - paul: I understand they're different things. the word "double" in the expression "double standard" refers to there being two different things. - pierce
[2008-09-04 15:01:02] - Pierce: It's not so much that I am against more than two terms as president. What I am leery of is that FDR essentially became a president for life. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:59:08] - Pierce: Somehow I don't see how that's at all similar to the Civil Rights Movement, unless Rosa Parks was really JFK in drag and blackface. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:58:27] - Pierce: The southern states didn't want to start a war with the nothern states. They wanted to leave the union peacefully. Lincoln would not allow that and initiated a bloody crackdown on the secessionists. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:57:31] - and that eliminates the double standard? ~a
[2008-09-04 14:57:04] - Pierce: The southern states seceeded because Lincoln was elected president and then Lincoln called for volunteer militia to put down the uprising. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:55:35] - Pierce: I think the Civil War and Civil Rights movement are completely different things, despite them sharing a word in common. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:50:23] - a: no. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:44:54] - pierce: do you hate paul? paul thinks you hate him. ~a
[2008-09-04 14:43:02] - paul: it was illegal before august of last year. ~a
[2008-09-04 14:41:37] - but either way, we're arguing about nothing. you're still wrong, though. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:40:16] - well, to clarify that, the issue of inexperience is unsubstantiated as it's currently being presented. I don't think it's meaningless, nor is that the actual point of the article I linked. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:38:57] - and of course, the ultimate irony is that the article's conclusion was that you can't draw conclusions from the data he used, which was probably the best data we could ever have on the matter. so this entire discussion is meaningless, as is the "inexperience" narrative. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:37:34] - the author used other sources, which themselves were aggregate opinions by people who are ostensibly most qualified to judge. therefore the article maintains credibility despite the fact that you disagree with it. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:36:11] - paul: I didn't expect anything other than your opinion, but we got into this because of the narrative that "obama is inexperienced" and "palin is as experienced as obama", and the article I linked was a counter to that narrative that carried some legitimacy outside its author's opinions alone. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:34:08] - heh. so the civil war (which was bad) is lincoln's fault, but the civil rights and women's rights movements (which were good) are cultural shifts that would've happened anyway? doesn't that seem like a double standard to you? why are you assigning blame but not credit? seems like it should be both or neither. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:32:27] - paul: do you deny that kennedy is remembered fondly for the space program? what are you not a fan of about running for a third and fourth term? I would have assumed you'd support it since it gives more choice to the people instead of the government. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:29:56] - aba: I'm not as familiar with his involvement with the civil rights and women's rights movements, but I have to imagine that those were more cultural shifts that would've gone on without him (and did). -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:29:09] - ddr_people: Vinnie wanted to try the DDR machine at Time-out this week. It's in the same arcade, just around the corner - aaron
[2008-09-04 14:27:51] - a: What rules? Because the government makes the rules and they've said that it's ok. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:26:58] - Pierce: I'm not sure what else you were expecting other than *my* objections within my own mindset. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:25:24] - there are tons of rules against domestic government wiretapping. ~a
[2008-09-04 14:24:37] - Pierce: I never claimed that my ranking of presidents should be the de facto one and I won't lose any sleep that you trust the experts more than me. I just said that I disagree with their rankings of the presidents. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:22:33] - Pierce: There's plenty of things that there are no rules against while people have voted on which I am not a fan of. Are you saying you have no problems with domestic government wiretapping? -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:19:58] - Pierce: That's true, starting a program which has eaten up millions of dollars for negligible impact on normal American lives *coughspaceprogram* is certainly the true measuring stick of a great president. -Paul
[2008-09-04 14:16:55] - "McIver was fined $1,000 in July for awarding a no-bid contract to a company after vacationing in the Virgin Islands condominium of one of the firm's owners. The commission ruled that while McIver did not intend to violate the code or receive any private benefit, a reasonable person would consider his judgment impaired by his vacation stays." - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:11:29] - pierce: what was the fine for? ~a
[2008-09-04 14:08:54] - you're both listing things that paul probably hates. ~a
[2008-09-04 14:07:48] - which is itself a thought i do not accept. i think plenty of dumb people are able to think about something, then slough it off. ~a
[2008-09-04 14:07:35] - kennedy was also influential in the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement and he also started the peace corps. - aba
[2008-09-04 14:05:37] - hahah, a city councilmember here tried to pay an ethics fine with city money. technically legal (which they're now trying to correct), but more importantly it's hilariously ironic. - pierce
[2008-09-04 14:01:51] - it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~a
[2008-09-04 13:50:33] - which may be exactly what you were saying, in which case I hereby relax the discourse requirements. - pierce
[2008-09-04 13:48:26] - so while I understand that these are *your* objections to those presidents, they don't exactly seem like a significant counterpoint to the article I posted, except within your own mindset. - pierce
[2008-09-04 13:43:23] - and I'm not sure exactly what your objection is to a president running for a third and fourth term, if there's no rule against it and the people actually elect him. - pierce
[2008-09-04 13:37:26] - paul: the former is a gross oversimplification, and the latter is outright wrong. *coughspaceprogram* - pierce
[2008-09-04 13:36:51] - paul: none of them were flawless presidents and you and I have agreed on some of their failures before. but statements like "[lincoln] was responsible for more American deaths than any other president", or "[kennedy] is only remembered fondly because he was young, spoke eloquently, and was assassinated" are the reason I trust experts more than you. - pierce
[2008-09-04 11:03:25] - title: Yay! -- Xpovos
[2008-09-04 10:22:17] - a: I hold him to a higher standard of discourse. If he's debating the point, he has to be awake at 6.
-Paul[2008-09-04 09:42:03] - i'd say it's high enough, however you haven't given us a chance to dialog. pierce is probably still sleeping. it's like 6 for him. ~a
[2008-09-04 09:28:53] - Pierce: Hopefully that's enough of a higher standard of discourse for you. If not, then I guess I'm just going to have to be wrong on this one because I don't have the time to spend all day writing a discourse on the message board.
-Paul[2008-09-04 09:27:50] - a: That's true, although I don't quite understand why. I'm pretty sure JFK also started our involvement in the Vietnam War. -Paul
[2008-09-04 09:25:59] - Pierce: He was far too cozy with Stalin and the Soviet Union, allowing half of Europe to fall behind the Iron Curtain for decades. When the Supreme Court struck down his policies as unconstitutional, he tried to expand the court to pack it with yes-men to rubber stamp his unconstitutional bills. -Paul
[2008-09-04 09:22:36] - wasn't he thought of fondly before he was assassinated? ~a
[2008-09-04 09:21:54] - Pierce: FDR instituted a number of failed economic policies which may very well have extended the great depression. He allowed the surprise attack at Pearl Harbor to occur on his watch. He completely disregarded the two term limit which every president prior had stuck to. -Paul
[2008-09-04 09:19:36] - Pierce: Kennedy was a failure of a president who utterly botched an invasion of a country that isn't even close to the United States in terms of military might and who is only remembered fondly because he was young, spoke eloquently, and was assassinated. -Paul
[2008-09-04 09:18:15] - Pierce: Lincoln rolled back civil liberties before Bush made it cool. He instituted the draft and plunged America into the most devastating war it has ever seen. He was responsible for more American deaths than any other president. -Paul
[2008-09-03 18:24:45] - i agree with paul's assessments over a broad range of so-called experts outright. ~a
[2008-09-03 18:05:28] - paul: and additionally, at least try to convince us why we should agree with your assessment over that of a broad range of experts. - pierce
[2008-09-03 17:42:30] - paul: if you can explain why you think lincoln and kennedy and fdr are such ass holes and where they should be rated, then maybe we can better understand why you think the historian poll sucks. ~a
[2008-09-03 17:23:40] - paul: I'm holding you to a higher standard of discourse. if you're debating the point, you have to substantiate it with something. I could believe that mccain sacrifices babies on the altar of ba'al, but if I'm making that point in a discussion of the candidates' merits then I need to have more force behind it than just being rilly rilly sure. - pierce
[2008-09-03 17:19:27] - "she's hardly ever left the country" - aba - pierce
[2008-09-03 17:09:05] - dude, lincoln is on mount rushmore. you're so unamerican. ~a
[2008-09-03 17:06:32] - palin chilling in kuwait (2007) ~a
[2008-09-03 17:05:27] - palin has left the country. aba said she hadn't? ~a
[2008-09-03 17:00:24] - Pierce: I disagree with it because I would rank the presidents very differently. I happen to think that Abraham Lincoln is one of our worst presidents instead of one of our bests and I would say the same about FDR and Kennedy. -Paul
[2008-09-03 16:58:44] - palin has never left the country?! ~a
[2008-09-03 16:58:10] - paul: you're allowed to disagree with it, but you're not allowed to use your disagreement as a counterpoint without elaborating on why you disagree with it and what you think would be a better measure. not if you want your argument to stand on its own merits. - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:56:27] - just to make something clear, because I feel like I seem to be arguing both sides of this. I personally agree with the article I linked: you can't translate directly from experience (executive, legislative, or otherwise) into presidential quality. I think there are better and worse types of experience, and I think there's both too much and too little experience. - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:56:23] - paul: fair enough, it's among her absent qualifications but it's not the only lack of qualification we're concerned about. - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:49:20] - Besides, if we can glean anything from that article it's that it's a total crapshoot and that there is virtually no connection between experience and how well certain historians in 2000 perceived you except that possibly the extreme ends are bad. -Paul
[2008-09-03 16:47:34] - Pierce: I don't think I need any more of a leg to stand on. I don't see any reason why I am not allowed to disagree with an opinion poll about who the best presidents are. -Paul
[2008-09-03 16:44:22] - paul: you're going to need more of a leg to stand on than "strongly disagreeing." fact is, there's no objective and meaningful way to measure presidents, and a poll of historians from across the political spectrum seems about as close as we'll ever be able to get. - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:41:20] - I guess I'm confused what other experience she is exactly lacking. Experience as one of many legislators of Illinois? I would argue being governor of any state (no matter the size) is better experience than just being a legislator. -Paul
[2008-09-03 16:39:28] - a: aba had mentioned Palin never leaving the country, so I guess I assumed people were concerned about her foreign policy experience. -Paul
[2008-09-03 16:38:47] - paul: yeah, no one said foreign, and critiques of obama's inexperience haven't been limited to his lack of foreign policy experience. - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:37:40] - Pierce: I would say the big flaw in that article is that it seems to be basing everything off of an opinion poll of historians; a poll which I seem to disagree strongly with. -Paul
[2008-09-03 16:35:14] - nobody said foreign. ~a
[2008-09-03 16:34:26] - sweet. i sentence you, pierce joseph, to four years as my sex slave. ~a
[2008-09-03 16:32:57] - Pierce: I thought we were talking about foreign policy experience here. Why does the population of your state make such a big difference? -Paul
[2008-09-03 16:29:22] - a: right you are. obviously invalid then, I withdraw the link and throw myself on the mercy of the court. - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:21:15] - pierce: your link has two web style problems: 1. barack obama's name is misspelled (well not exactly, but the spell checker is underlining his name). 2. this tabular data is better represented as (in decreasing preference) html, svg, png, or gif. your link chose jpg. ~a
[2008-09-03 16:14:48] - here is an analysis of the importance of the "experience" question. it makes it clear that you can't draw conclusions, but if that -- if anything -- they would suggest that obama's level of experience is at a better level, statistically, than mccain's or palin's. - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:03:20] - I think it's valid on principle, although overhyped, and I really don't think obama's inexperience and palin's are comparable. mayor of a town of 6,000 people and then a year and a half as governor of the fourth least-populated state in the union, compared to ten years of state- and federal-level legislative experience for the fifth most-populated state? - pierce
[2008-09-03 16:01:01] - Paul: I think your first statement is almost as accurate. And so does the title, yay! For a while, I thought someone was going to make the title "Xpovos is offensive" because I was a little aggressive this morning. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 15:55:30] - *WILL be the president if the Democrats are elected. -Paul
[2008-09-03 15:54:57] - a: Because Palin has a slim change to be president if the Republicans are elected whereas Obama WILL be the president. Also, even assuming McCain dies in office, she will have time to learn on the job without causing much harm. -Paul
[2008-09-03 15:51:53] - *triple. ~a
[2008-09-03 15:51:36] - paul: why tripple / more so? ~a
[2008-09-03 15:43:43] - Pierce: Fair enough. But if criticism of his VP's inexperience is valid, then I think criticism of Obama's inexperience is at least triply valid, if not more so. -Paul
[2008-09-03 15:18:15] - pierce: No, I think you understood me correctly. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 15:16:02] - paul: right, which is basically what I said in response to xpovos. the point remains about McCain's age, though. I'm not suggesting it disqualifies him from the office or anything, but it does justify a closer look at his VP choice. - pierce
[2008-09-03 15:15:33] - a: Anybody could've shot their friend in the face with a shotgun.
-Paul[2008-09-03 15:04:47] - fair enough. ~a
[2008-09-03 15:03:58] - a: I think a lot of the things you mentioned weren't necessarily done as part of his job as VP. In other words, any member of the administration could've done the same thing. -Paul
[2008-09-03 14:29:13] - the iraq al-qaeda thing, the wmd thing, the greeted as liberators thing, enron, plame, hunting accident, cdc deletions. ~a
[2008-09-03 14:28:01] - oh, did I misunderstand? I thought you were agreeing that he'd been influential, but claiming that that wasn't inherent to his role as VP in any way. if you're saying he hasn't done anything significant over the last eight years then I'll have to disagree with you. - pierce
[2008-09-03 14:26:12] - xpovos: you're right, I'm sure a lot of his exercise of power was outside the official responsibility as VP. nevertheless, he showed that the VP can be more than just the tiebreaking senate vote. - pierce
[2008-09-03 14:25:53] - xpovos: i know wikipedia is sometimes slanted left, but there's really nothing good about his vice presidential term despite the fact that there's like 1000 things bad about his term. ~a
[2008-09-03 14:15:53] - pierce: You are right, I missed an anti. Shame on me. On the other topic, what is it exactly that Cheney has done as VP? Most of the stuff that people are really upset with him about he did just as a powerful and influential somebody who was more or less corrupt. As VP he hasn't really done much that I can see. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 13:51:45] - mig: to an extent, but obama will get more of the support side of it and less of the alienation side of it since he was elected to be the nominee instead of appointed like Palin. - pierce
[2008-09-03 13:48:53] - Palin's selection certainly isn't a home run for McCain though, as far as I can tell. Seems like there would've been a lot of better choices out there, male or female. To an extent, I wonder if the republicans are seeing this election as a long shot for them, and none of the better-qualified candidates want to waste their political capital on a failed VP bid. - pierce
[2008-09-03 13:47:09] - pierce: the same thing probably applies for obama, just from a different demographic. - mig
[2008-09-03 13:45:41] - realistically, as much as I hate to admit it, there probably is a segment of the female population who are ambivalent enough about the political differences to be swayed by the fact that she's a woman. But in fairness, there may be an equal segment who would be alienated by such an obviously pandering choice, so I'd guess it's not a significant trend. - pierce
[2008-09-03 13:41:46] - xpovos: a VP didn't do much in Adams' time, but cheney paved the way for a much more active VP. And, even if she doesn't follow in his hoofsteps, the stark reality is that she would be second in line after a septuagenarian cancer survivor. More than usual, her qualifications are relevant. - pierce
[2008-09-03 13:36:19] - xpovos: you missed an anti. - pierce
[2008-09-03 13:23:17] - no, but palin could be. can the second coming be a chick? ~a
[2008-09-03 13:15:16] - a: Depends, are you feeling like you're the second coming? -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 13:12:52] - aaron: the mac guy was also one of the main characters in galaxy quest and waiting and die hard 4. ~a
[2008-09-03 13:08:31] - you mean she's the anti-antichrist? ~a
[2008-09-03 12:29:26] - a/aba:
Good stuff. I personally don't see either Obama's or Palin's lack of experience as an issue. I was merely rebutting the argument against Palin on that stance. You can dislike her all you want over politics, I'd expect no less, she's pretty much the anti a/aba candidate. -- Xpovos[2008-09-03 12:20:49] - xpovos: a VP needs to be good in case the president keels over.
also obama's campaign is larger than the town palin was mayor of. - aba[2008-09-03 12:14:07] - xpovos: what's wrong with obama's executive experience? plenty of presidents were only senators for like zero or one terms. ~a
[2008-09-03 12:00:04] - gurkie: oh that's cool!! i was wrong about jay from degrassi being in idiocracy, it was just the "mac guy" Justin Long with weird hair - aaron
[2008-09-03 11:50:22] - aba: A VP honestly doesn't do much. "My country has in its wisdom contrived for me the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or his imagination conceived..." - John Adams. And any executive experience is more than Obama's. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 11:48:17] - I think the dems don't want to push sex-ed and abortion as issues because they're so polarizing. it really pushes people strongly in one of two directions. whereas pointing out that Palin is inexperienced and a nobody helps the dems more - vinnie
[2008-09-03 11:45:34] - gurkie: Both Palin and Clinton stand, except when they pee, and that seems to be enough for some voters. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 11:34:52] - Gurkie: Yeah, it will be virtually impossible to tell for sure, but I'm almost positive (again, assuming no more significant scandals) that this pick is going to help McCain get more female votes. -Paul
[2008-09-03 11:29:42] - paul: ... I was going to ask what you would bet, but I dont know how this can be measured really... I mean other factors will obviously factor in between now and the elections... ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 11:28:49] - aba: then again for all I know he has and I have been too busy with my own life to notice/care... ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 11:28:41] - Gurkie: I'll bet you that assuming no other significant skeletons come out of her closet, that Palin will give McCain at least a 5% boost in support by women. -Paul
[2008-09-03 11:27:54] - aba: it feels like if he wants to say anything he should use this as an opportunity to voice his opinion on sex ed, and abortion and try to make it a non-personal (to Palan) issue... After all if the republicans are going to use this to push an agenda I feel like replying to their agenda is fair game... ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 11:27:01] - aba: Oh, I certainly didn't mean to imply she would make a good vice president. I'm just saying that if McCain wanted to make a choice that would help him win the election, I think he did an excellent job. -Paul
[2008-09-03 11:25:25] - gurkie: when they started attacking obama's wife, he basically said that families were not fair game and to back off. i think basically he's showing that he can hold to the same rule. - aba
[2008-09-03 11:22:37] - I like part of this http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/09/what_she_said_4 but at the same time what good does Barack backing off do? I mean he has to have a viewpoint and since he is a presidential candidate his viewpoint is relevant to the election... Did he do/say something that would warrant a response like "back off"? ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 11:19:55] - http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/1668/juneaupa0.jpg ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 11:19:08] - paul: I could be wrong about how people will react to her but I think the people who will want a female in office are more likely to care about her beliefs. I also figure if I think of them as completely different and I pay no attention to news then other people wont see them as interchangable. ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 11:17:56] - mig: I think the scandal will actually increase some peoples like for her... Instead of seeing someone pristine they will see someone who sticks to their beliefs, or at least is able to force/impart the anti-abortion aspect of her beliefs to her children. ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 11:07:39] - paul: i just think she's a terrible VP choice for other, more pressing reasons (like she has no idea what a VP does, she's hardly ever left the country and her "executive experience" doesn't actually add up to much). - aba
[2008-09-03 11:01:35] - Mig: Republicans and "conservatives" have turned a blind eye to far worse, IMHO. -Paul
[2008-09-03 11:00:54] - Gurkie: I think I have a low opinion of people's political awareness. I think most people aren't going to see a hardcore conservative. I think they're going to see a mom, and women like moms.
-Paul[2008-09-03 10:57:56] - I would think any conservative credibility McCain could have gotten would be lost by this "scandal". It's hard to say, "she's very pro-wholesome family" when she can't keep her own children in line. - mig
[2008-09-03 10:44:33] - Paul: I dont know that Palin is much of a substitute for Hillary. I feel like most people who liked her arent going to be into a super religious female as a replacement. They stand for such different things that I really dont see people viewing her as a replacement. ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 10:42:28] - aaron: Darcy from Degrassi is on 90210 now... She is the main character, it was super weird... Her persona looks younger than I feel like 90210 is supposed to be... ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 10:39:03] - Xpovos: I agree with your analysis. At first I thought it was a terrible choice but now I think it's a stroke of genius. Helps lock up his base and possibly brings in some women who might be hating Obama for beating their girl. It's the only demographic he probably has a shot with. -Paul
[2008-09-03 10:37:54] - a: No, I'm saying that I feel like they could've made abortion the central theme of this race without needing their VP's daughter to be pregnant. -Paul
[2008-09-03 10:32:17] - aaron: yea I couldnt remember the spelling either... ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 10:18:11] - a: I mean, you can consider this hypocritical, but you probably already thought the whole concept of absitance-only sex ed., and the Republican party in general were hypocritical, so they haven't exactly lost your vote... -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 10:17:16] - bring in the Republican base who McCain can't court very well. If she brings in a handful of disaffected Hilary supporters who care more about womanhood than politics so much the better. In short, despite drawbacks, Palin wins McCain votes without losing any, whereas Biden gains very few and turns off a lot. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 10:15:49] - a: I doubt it was intentional, but I think it'll play in his (McCain's) favor. It's a 'scandal', which means press-coverage. And the old adage goes that any news is good news, which works very well for a presidential candidate. A week out of the headlines loses 3% on polling. And Palin, between her hard-nose conservatism and family issues here will ... -- Xpovos
[2008-09-03 10:14:48] - gurkie: diane russinello? i think that's how you spell it but maybe not. it's on my fridge (but then i guess it's on yours too) - aaron
[2008-09-03 10:09:46] - aaron: whats the name of our realtor? I cant remember her last name... ~gurkie
[2008-09-03 10:05:21] - paul: you are saying it was intentional?
~a[2008-09-03 10:04:13] - yeah, it's slow for me too. ~a
[2008-09-03 09:59:55] - I don't know if it's a coincedence but the acid3 test page server is having some server problems today... coming up super super slow - aaron
[2008-09-03 09:57:19] - anybody using google chrome? - aaron
[2008-09-03 09:24:34] - Pierce: Seems like an interesting way to bring the topic of abortion into the public debate.
-Paul[2008-09-02 22:43:12] - paul: aparna had the same sentiment . . . "they are saying that conservatives are happy because it shows dedication to the pro-life/religious cause." ~a
[2008-09-02 18:49:24] - paul: "from the looks of it, the republicans would prefer that the conversation (if it happens at all) be about abortion rather than sex ed. - pierce" - pierce
[2008-09-02 18:48:45] - a: that's on a long list of things I daydream about that would've resulted in bush not winning. - pierce
[2008-09-02 18:47:59] - Pierce: What issue would this be a stepping stone for? Sex out of wedlock? Abstinence only education? -Paul
[2008-09-02 17:44:32] - i sometimes wonder if the gay marriage referendums didn't exist, would bush would have still won in 04. ~a
[2008-09-02 17:37:11] - (to be clear, I mean this will be to 2008 what gay marriage was to 2004... a valid issue of discussion but hyped and inflated by the republicans in order to rally voter turnout) - pierce
[2008-09-02 17:36:01] - I won't go so far as to assume it's Palin's hope, but I'm sure there are republican strategists who see this as the stepping stone to 2008's "gay marriage" issue. Something that's really no more relevant than usual but is divisive enough to serve as a battle standard... bringing evangelicals to the voting booth who would never vote democrat but don't love McCain. - pierce
[2008-09-02 17:33:07] - a: Sorry, I thought that's what you meant when you said "whom she herself educated". Maybe the school her daughter went to didn't provide abstinence only education and that's why she is pregnant.
-Paul[2008-09-02 17:30:49] - I've seen a startling amount of doublethink, people saying that we ought to respect her family's privacy and that questioning Palin's parenting is off limits, then turning around and lauding her choice to have the baby -- and using that to position Palin as a beacon for pro-life values. - pierce
[2008-09-02 17:29:25] - from the looks of it, the republicans would prefer that the conversation (if it happens at all) be about abortion rather than sex ed. - pierce
[2008-09-02 16:51:10] - paul: i don't think i said her daughter was home-schooled. i said that palin educated her daughter just as my parents were teachers to me. but you are right, the "hypocrisy" statement was pending on the details of the eight month thing. ~a
[2008-09-02 16:46:37] - aaron: yeah, plus i trust google will get to it soon enough (i'm not waiting impatiently for chrome like i was waiting impatiently for GWT 1.5) ~a
[2008-09-02 16:31:45] - On the surface, I would say that it's hard to call the mother a hypocrite because of her daughter's actions. I think it's more accurate to say that it's an unfortunately (for her) public example of the potential failing of such a education. -Paul
[2008-09-02 16:24:51] - a: Her daughter was home-schooled? -Paul
[2008-09-02 16:16:48] - a: it's open source so if it's any good, hopefully people will port it over - aaron
[2008-09-02 16:12:00] - "We're hard at work building versions for Mac and Linux too" well i guess that's fine. ~a
[2008-09-02 16:10:21] - awwww . . . google chrome is windows only? wtf.
~a[2008-09-02 16:02:48] - well that depends on how involved she is in her daughter's life. usually conservative people pride themselves on their strong family bonds, though i'll admit i haven't seen palin state as much anywhere. ~a
[2008-09-02 15:59:08] - a: hmm, yeah it's not that good an analogy. I guess to me it's like maybe she believes in abstinence-only education now because of her mistakes in the past, similar to how a smoker might wish that there had been education in the past. and she can't really be a hypocrite based on her daughter's actions - vinnie
[2008-09-02 15:57:34] - "the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, the Society for Adolescent Medicine, the American College Health Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Public Health Association ... all maintain that sex education needs to be comprehensive to be effective." hmmm. ~a
[2008-09-02 15:51:23] - xpovos: granted. but all i've said above (below) holds true for her daughter. ~a
[2008-09-02 15:49:39] - vinnie: your analogy is close; but it breaks down because with sex-education, we're not disagreeing on whether or not there should be sex-ed, we're disagreeing on whether the kids should get all the graphic gory facts, or whether we should be teaching them abstinence-only (from now on will be referred to as "sugar coated") ~a
[2008-09-02 15:43:12] - a: There's insufficient evidence to indicate that she was engaged in pre-marital sex. It seems likely, but as I pointed out below, it's not a guaranteed thing. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-02 15:38:50] - a: I wouldn't call it hypocrisy. it's like a smoker saying that we should have better education about smoking. I would say she isn't the best spokesperson for abstinence-only sex ed - vinnie
[2008-09-02 15:24:04] - her daughter (whom she herself educated) and herself. it's a failing of the education because what should be the poster-boys for abstinence-only sex education are/were pregnant. isn't that hypocrisy? ~a
[2008-09-02 15:10:54] - a: What's funny about abstinence-only sex-education in this situation? Clearly her daughter didn't listen to it. How is that a failing of the education? -- Xpovos
[2008-09-02 15:09:12] - I heard about it yesterday, I'm definitely going to take it for a spin. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-02 14:23:26] - aaron: hehe yeah. "that's actually what it looks like" - vinnie
[2008-09-02 14:09:10] - palin is a firm supporter of abstinence-only sex-education. bahahaha. ~a
[2008-09-02 14:08:29] - vinnie: did you see "sad tab"? i thought that was cute - aaron
[2008-09-02 13:52:46] - oh hah. they're using the same renderer as safari. ~a
[2008-09-02 13:51:11] - yeah, that's an interesting concept though i'm sure there's a good reason firefox & opera & safari decided not to do that. ~a
[2008-09-02 13:43:05] - paul: nah, I think they've been trying to keep it under wraps. I only heard about it like an hour ago
- vinnie[2008-09-02 13:41:52] - yay Scott McCloud http://www.google.com/googlebooks/chrome/ the most interesting feature to me is that they're trying to limit crashes to tabs rather than the whole app - vinnie
[2008-09-02 13:37:14] - Vinnie: D'oh. Guess I am behind the cutting edge news.
-Paul[2008-09-02 13:37:06] - any of you all gonna try Google Chrome? - vinnie
[2008-09-02 13:36:19] - Paul: My daughter was born 8 months after my wedding. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-02 13:34:25] - paul: it's already been read into plenty from places I've read
- vinnie[2008-09-02 13:18:11] - Just read the wiki article on Palin and it mentions that her first son was born 8 months after the wedding. I wonder if there is anything to read into there.
-Paul[2008-09-02 12:24:53] - vinnie: here's the link (green solutions) ~a
[2008-09-02 12:21:33] - aba: yeah, i saw that on mig's link. i wonder if that one's true. such craziness. ~a
[2008-09-02 12:20:17] - no, no, it's implied adultery. the waiter was the kids father. which is why i brought it up in regards to palin's grandchildren. ~a
[2008-09-02 12:11:02] - a: I must not have the right context. What's funny about that ad? Implied incest? Not being offended, implied incest can be funny, but I'm just not getting it. Probably need to see the ad. YouTube to the rescue! -- Xpovos
[2008-09-02 11:52:47] - a: the original speculation was that palin's youngest son was actually bristol's and there was a huge cover-up about it (palin didn't appear to be pregnant and bristol was out of school for 4 months with mono). the whole situation is really weird. - aba
[2008-09-02 11:46:35] - a: they've actually got a green (no propulsion) solution for every puzzle now. you can find the thread in their forums - vinnie
[2008-09-02 11:20:43] - xpovos: have you seen the "eat at joes" commercial? a family of four is eating at joes. the waiter says "the usual, maam?!" to the mother, then the camera pans to the waiter and one of the kids. the kid looks exactly like the waiter.
it's pretty funny in my opinion. ~a[2008-09-02 11:17:08] - vinnie: wow! i assume (from the designId) that you didn't make that. yeah, i was saying that 19-21 were too hard. oops. ~a
[2008-09-02 10:55:38] - http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=1069116 probably my new favorite contraption - vinnie
[2008-09-02 10:52:51] - a: By that point the election will long be over, and it'll either be irrelevant, because who really cares about ex-vice presidential candidates (Geraldine Ferraro?), or 'too late'. I'd actually kind of enjoy the political drama of a genetic disorder, though... -- Xpovos
[2008-09-02 10:21:33] - well it would be pretty risky if it wasn't the father. if the child ends up with a genetic disorder, or looks strikingly like the ex-boyfriend, it'll raise an even bigger ruckus. ~a
[2008-09-02 09:02:04] - a: Presumed father. -- Xpovos
[2008-09-02 08:31:20] - getting married to the father? ~a
[2008-09-02 01:42:14] - a: they are saying that conservatives are happy because it shows dedication to the pro-life/religious cause. the daughter is keeping the baby and getting married. - aba
[2008-09-01 22:56:55] - http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=846491 "trap door cart". also good job adrian that's a hard puzzle for no propulsion! - aaron
[2008-09-01 22:50:06] - http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=776787 "teamwork" - aaron
[2008-09-01 22:50:00] - a: yes it does! - aaron
[2008-09-01 22:16:08] - aaron: your link also includes some extra levels we can play! ~a
[2008-09-01 22:13:47] - aaron: crap. ~a
[2008-09-01 22:11:21] - wow. i wonder why they did that. the mccain camp had to have known about this. ~a
[2008-09-01 22:08:18] - a lot of those solutions are pretty hilarious, i liked "u turn" in particular - aaron
[2008-09-01 22:03:45] - vinnie: http://fantasticcontraption.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28#p128 here's the fewest pieces people have used for each puzzle... it includes a different 6-piece solution to unpossible - aaron
[2008-09-01 18:11:50] - http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20080901/CVN.Palin.Daughter/ so much for catering to the moral majority. - mig
[2008-09-01 14:21:31] - aaron: haha. i did that one without propulsion, but it was a pretty dumb solution: http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=1092828 ~a
[2008-09-01 11:59:27] - vinnie: http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=1140016 using a rod as a cue stick - aaron
[2008-08-30 14:17:10] - so #17 is the last level i can complete without propulsion. you showed a solution for #18, but it looks like #19-#21 are too hard. ~a
[2008-08-30 12:38:08] - aaron: there's a glitch that happens when you connect the ends of a wheel to itself and the middle. it builds up a ton of energy. I guess they're probably not going to fix it at this point because I've seen a lot of solutions that rely on it - vinnie
[2008-08-30 04:01:36] - vinnie: http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=736932 ?! - aaron
[2008-08-29 20:17:16] - title: great movie. ~a
[2008-08-29 18:23:29] - I think of it like Magic: The Gathering. I like to beat the levels, but I like doing it my own way (healer deck, thallid deck, etc). -Paul
[2008-08-29 18:08:46] - a: yeah I think that's what he meant. to me, it's more fun just putting things together and seeing what they do, or finding interesting solutions to levels rather than just trying to beat each level - vinnie
[2008-08-29 18:03:39] - i guess you're saying that the point isn't to beat the levels? ~a
[2008-08-29 18:02:58] - what's the difference? ~a
[2008-08-29 16:56:16] - http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=1054855 i'll have to play more later this is mucho fun. it's a lot more fun to treat as a toy than it is to treat it as a game - aaron
[2008-08-29 16:46:00] - a: A little. Sometimes I just can't figure out where my power is going. I'll have a bunch of wheels who can't lift a tiny thing and then I make a seemingly inconsequential change and they can lift it easily. -Paul
[2008-08-29 16:35:36] - paul: if you're using them to tie a bunch of propulsion units together: you're talking about like what you did for u-turn? where the propulsion units started losing synchronization? ~a
[2008-08-29 16:13:13] - I'm beginning to think I don't understand the physics of the water rods properly. I have been trying unpossible and my stupid machine keeps getting deadlocked for reasons I don't understand. -Paul
[2008-08-29 15:53:06] - I'd better do some work now ^_^ - vinnie
[2008-08-29 15:52:46] - another no-wheel Mission to Mars solution of mine, I thought the concept was sort of funny http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=1051841 - vinnie
[2008-08-29 15:45:32] - a: yep: http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=1018573 - vinnie
[2008-08-29 15:42:21] - yeah, after looking at the "tube" and "awash" solutions you just linked it makes me think you can get much more power when you convert the kinetic energy from something heavy to something light than you can ever get out of the propulsion units. ~a
[2008-08-29 15:34:58] - vinnie: i didn't know until just now that you could break joints if they get pulled hard enough. ~a
[2008-08-29 15:29:50] - lol another one I found that I would have never expected http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=1029388 - vinnie
[2008-08-29 15:27:32] - haha holy crap! if tube is possible without propulsion... I didn't design this btw http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=1037868 - vinnie
[2008-08-29 15:19:15] - a: very clever using the ball! - vinnie
[2008-08-29 15:10:46] - i like how it comes all the way back and almost folds back up into the workspace. ~a
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