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nina: i follow chai's fb updates about hollaback dc. i think it's great. i think it's important just having a place where it's OK to talk about this and make these experiences known to the world... so that ppl realize it is a real problem. -amy aaron:  hah.  it shows the section missing from the C&O canal correctly.  and it also includes a trail that goes almost the whole way from dc to pittsburgh.  wowee.  ~a ok, this article seemed ok up until this sentence:  "It is common courtesy for each player to remove the other players shoes and socks."  wtf?  ~a actually there are tons of trails we need to add.  burke lake, wakefield, ffc parkway, difficult run, rocky run park, south run.  but yeah, the cct would totally change this map.  ~a "this is major tom to major tom, I'm talking to myseeeeeeelf" yay yay yay yay!  it has lots of cool trails.  i've actually been on most of the dark green lines in nova and DC.  i wonder if i can add lines somehow.  they need the CCT.  ~a hey added bike directions to google (sorry it was a long url) - aaron a: t Ugh, my first statement came across as a little blunt, after a number of changes to it... I meant to say that I am not trying to place blame on females or anything, but unless these guys are told that their comments are making others feel uncomfortable, I find it hard to blame them. -Paul a: If there was some objective reason to be worried (like he was clearly high/drunk, or holding a weapon, etc), then I would definitely be a little creeped out. -Paul paul:  what if it was some toothless dude who was obviously high on some illegal substance?  ~a I just wanted to jump in to say that I agree with Aaron. I find it hard to relate to the situation. If I was walking home from work and some girl (even if she were ugly) said I was attractive, I would be flattered. -Paul snl skit - Sexual Harassment and You.  maybe nsfw.  basically sticks to the "attractiveness matters" point.  ~a aaron: it was a manager... not directly my manager but one of the managers on my project. ~gurkie aaron: I agree with you on that... the difference in attractiveness of guys can change ones perception of the scenario. More important than how he looks to me is where we are located, if we are with a group and I feel safe then I am much less inclined to be creeped out, but if he suggests going somewhere alone or we met in an alone setting... Then I am creeped out ~gurkie gurkie: was it a manager who said the really really inappropriate comment where he "wouldn't mind" something or other? or was that someone else - aaron a: to be fair, it hasnt always been sexual comments or innuendos, I have had managers who dont think women should be working or think that things women do are innately inferior to the work of a man and that has also made me uncomfortable. ~gurkie and like you hinted at earler, a big part of it is knowing when to stop. i think most of the times guys either don't understand the signals, or girls don't make the signals clear enough, and it results in a bad situation  - aaron nina: well, the whole creepy/cute thing is more of an attraction thing than a behavior thing. take the love-at-first-sight scene out of any sappy romance movie and replace the male lead with an ugly guy, and it becomes a very creepy movie... "yuck and when he accidentally touched her hand? sure, whatever, and that freudian slip was just inappropriate" - aaron "generally its been managers that make me uncomfortable"  oof that sounds much harder i think.  ~a "it's really quite intimidating to tell someone that they're making you uncomfortable" yeah you might have to do it in private.  i once (very recently) had to tell one of my coworkers back off of the haptics in public.  i had to do it in private so it was less uncomfortable.  ~a a: there are a couple things with that... I mean yea I didnt tell them they made me uncomfortable but generally its been managers that make me uncomfortable rather than people at the same level as me... And so what I tell them they make me uncomfortable and then I have to wonder how that will affect my career. Or I can just smile, nod, and try to avoid them. ~gurkie a: and most women do think it's the easier and less confrontational route to say nothing at all. -nina eh, sometimes I am flattered, so long as I have company with me so I dont feel threatened... ~gurkie a: yeah, it sounds easy enough, but it's really quite intimidating to tell someone that they're making you uncomfortable.  historically, the blame is put on the lady for "soliciting" that behavior of the man -nina gurkie:  if you don't tell people how you feel, how will they they know what they have done is wrong?  ~a gurkie: you're right.  but i think the broad stroked sexual harassment policies are meant to protect you in case the environment hasn't been built to allow a safe space for public sexual harassment. -nina aaron: and by default, by partaking in that behavior, you automatically become creepy. -nina nina: it depends on the work environment, I am fairly certain I have said and done things at work that wouldnt be appropriate at some places... ~gurkie aaron: i see what you're saying, but unfortunately, the vast majority of people that take part in that behavior are creepy or ugly.  and if it's someone i work with, then it really exacerbates the issue. -nina a: not really... I didnt want to make a scene really and since it wasnt everyone who made me uncomfortable I thought people would argue favoritism etc... maybe I should have said something, but it didnt bother me much... ~gurkie nina: it's a difficult situation for guys to relate to. personally i can't relate to it, i think i'd take it as a compliment. i mean, if it was a creepy or ugly guy then i might be like, ugh, gross. but i'd probably think that if a creepy or ugly guy offered me a sandwich too - aaron i don't think people really take into consideration how those comments, even if they seem like compliments, make a person feel.  objectified, demoralized, etc.  -nina that was me on that statement below. -nina my friend started a street harassment blog (hollabackdc.wordpress.com) and one of the comments that guys who go to the site always say is "well, you should feel glad that you're getting cat-called.  it means you're pretty" gurkie: i think that's messed up that people can say things like that in a work environment and think it's appropriate. -nina amy: that totally sucks about the guy saying those things to you and not reading your body language.  -nina gurkie:  did you tell people when their comments upset you?  ~a i just punched one of my coworkers butts today.  ~a a: my first company I had a lot of inappropriate comments, people slapping my butt, etc... But I assume its cause they were all my age and we got along well so they felt it was okay to touch/comment... It didnt bother me much when it was friends of mine, but some of the comments I got upset me. ~gurkie stephen: yes! - aaron all kidding aside that sucks hard.  "but this had not much to do with the company and more to do with the location of the office building."  ok, so like you said it has nothing to do with working with software engineers.  sorry i missed that the first time i read your post.  ~a Amy: That sounds good to me!  - Stephen like what if he was still lurking around watching where i went to work etc. but i never saw him again. -amy a: on my way back from lunch this guy came up to me and kept talking to me. "i know you from somewhere. do go to mason? no? then nvcc? you're very pretty..." he didn't say anything offensive but he wouldn't leave me alone. i told him i had to go back to work and he offered to walk me there, i said no and thankfully he left but for a while i was creeped out, -amy i should probably be more specific and say that i meant like one of the first 2 wknds in apr. -amy stephen: i was going to, but march is very busy for me, i think i'm busy for the rest of the weekends until april. i could plan a karaoke outing for april. would that work for everyone? -amy Does anyone want to plan another trip to Cafe Muse (Korean karaoke place)?  - Stephen vinnie: it was "ratcatcher"! ...they better not be the same person - aaron aaron: ice cream man - vinnie