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[2010-10-13 16:50:14] - Stephen: Not sure I would trust Biden over Clinton or Obama, but as I said before, I might trust Palin. Not that I think she would necessarily be a good president, but at least we wouldn't have gotten Obamacare. -Paul
[2010-10-13 16:48:23] - As an example: Regardless of what I think of Palin's intelligence, I actually think she wouldn't have gotten us into as much "trouble" (as I define it, which I certainly realize is different than what most people here would describe it) as Obama has. -Paul
[2010-10-13 16:46:35] - Daniel: Yes, people have been doing that since 1999. I can go ahead and put in an order, I guess. Are we not having Aaron replace me? -Paul
[2010-10-13 16:45:54] - a: I at least half seriously agree with it. The intellectuals who think they are smart enough to solve all of the country's problems have, frankly, gotten us into a pretty crazily bad situation. I'm not saying that we elect somebody obviously insane, but maybe we give the less mainstream candidates a try. -Paul
[2010-10-13 16:44:32] - Paul: The calling you crazy party? Better late than never. Also decide on which unit and toggle! I still think we should be able to get a turn in before this weekend. -Daniel
[2010-10-13 16:41:49] - Daniel: You're late to that party.
-Paul[2010-10-13 15:00:35] - mig: but tea party candidates are all crazy. reduce earmarks AND reduce taxes? CRAZY! ~a
[2010-10-13 13:46:44] - haha, they pointed at fermat's last theorem too. ~a
[2010-10-13 12:24:51] - xpovos: yeah, newton's method is pretty easy: double n=0; for(int i=0;i<10;i++)n-=f(n)/fp(n); ~a
[2010-10-13 11:58:19] - xpovos: yeah i was speaking more in general terms, not about o'donnell in particular. - mig
[2010-10-13 11:57:00] - mig: With fairness to the media outlets, O'Donnell is both way outside the mainstream (even if not crazy) and also pretty crazy. The problem is that they equate the two. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-13 11:56:13] - Clearly we should just label Paul crazy. I'm pretty sure thats the answer. -Daniel
[2010-10-13 11:55:28] - I love those problems that look so simple and have absurdly complex answers (or non-answers). At least I do now, as puzzles. I hated them as problems when I was younger. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-13 11:55:02] - a: i think the problem there is when people define crazy as anyone who disagrees with them (i.e. media outlets). - mig
[2010-10-13 11:54:59] - a: So, basically I was quasi-right with my e-mailed suggestion about needing a computer to approximate answers with successive iterations of 'try and see', except they've got a (perhaps) better algorithm for starting that. Nifty. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-13 11:46:10] - can't you find someone that agrees with you and isn't crazy? . . . regardless, i'd hardly consider the folks that got us into the current messes scholars. ~a
[2010-10-13 11:13:39] - Paul: I understand your wanting to thumb your nose at the media, but otherwise I'm with Adrian. I get that being smart doesn't necessarily make you qualified to run things, but would you really trust Biden to run things better than Clinton or Obama, for example? - Stephen
[2010-10-13 11:06:53] - paul: you do? seriously you agree with it? or you jokingly agree with it? because that seems like an ass backwards sentiment. i'd much prefer to elect the better of two intellectual candidates than a crazy because one "intellectual" candidate failed me. ~a
[2010-10-13 10:46:19] - Also, I agree with this sentiment I read somewhere else: If this is where electing the smart and intellectual candidates has gotten us, then maybe it's time to let the crazies run things to see if they can do better. -Paul
[2010-10-13 10:45:09] - Xpovos: I hope she wins. Not because I necessarily agree with her or think would be a good senator, but because I like seeing the media continually underestimating the Tea Party and being wrong. -Paul
[2010-10-13 09:19:15] - xpovos/aaron: so the question i asked here a month ago (an+bn=c), i asked a simplified version on wikipedia's math page. it didn't really come to what i'd consider an "answer" though it does kind of confirm that newton's method is probably the only way to solve it. ~a
[2010-10-12 23:03:47] - Matt: I am planning on receiving HIMYM as I leave for 2 weeks to ensure you dont get Disc 1. ~gurkie
[2010-10-12 22:19:31] - Gurkie & Paul: HIMYM Season 5 queued on netflix...now to sabotage your queue... - Matt
[2010-10-12 19:08:36] - xpovos: ouch. that was almost as painful to read as the last 5 minutes of "shoot em up" were to watch - aaron
[2010-10-12 17:34:29] - Tough, yes. Smart, no. http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-virginiatech-nosalsfinger -- Xpovos
[2010-10-12 17:23:31] - Christine O'Donnell: Lunatic ex-Catholic evangelical christian maybe-pagan hyper-right-wing tea party Republican candidate for U.S. Senate in Delaware. Discuss! -- Xpovos
[2010-10-12 16:25:03] - yeah, salt will do that - aaron
[2010-10-12 16:03:31] - was that retaliation for the title? ~a
[2010-10-12 16:03:07] - ew. ~a
[2010-10-12 15:57:01] - Yummy: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319562/McDonalds-Happy-Meal-bought-months-ago-shows-sign-mould.html - Stephen
[2010-10-12 14:30:44] - 100% mitch hedberg? ~a
[2010-10-12 14:24:06] - I like Miguel's suggestion. -Mitch (Definitely 100% Mitch)
[2010-10-12 14:11:25] - a: We'd probably end up being really ruthless just to prove that we weren't the care-beariest of them all. - Stephen
[2010-10-12 14:09:26] - paul: possibly, i think it depends on what you disband i guess. - mig
[2010-10-12 14:08:13] - mig: I haven't look at the board too hard, but it seemed like the anti-English forces still had a chance. Norway is probably a lost cause, but there's reason to believe that Kiel and Berlin could be held by the alliance. -Paul
[2010-10-12 14:00:05] - mig: alternatively, italy can just be declared the winner. ~a
[2010-10-12 13:59:42] - yeah, haha. we still need to make our care bear game. ~a
[2010-10-12 13:51:28] - alternatively, england can just be declared the winner. given paul has to disband this winter, I'm not sure if Mitch is going to be able to form a stalemate in the scandavian area in time to keep daniel from progressing. - mig
[2010-10-12 13:35:24] - a: I'll fight you for that title. Although I can think of one or two players who we might be able to out-maneuver. - Stephen
[2010-10-12 13:23:31] - once i get paul banned, i'll be the . . . no no, i'll still be the worst player in the group. ~a
[2010-10-12 13:17:55] - so we've done it before - aaron
[2010-10-12 13:17:50] - daniel: it's totally possible we'd get away with it, i'd just rather do it "the right way" and be formally given control of paul's units by going through the GM. It's not too painful, paul took care of my units when I went on a cruise about 2 years back sp we - aaron
[2010-10-12 12:53:07] - daniel: i'm sure they get the admin keeps track of what goes in with accounts (pw changes, ip logins, etc). It's not too hard to at least notice something that looks semi-suspicious. - mig
[2010-10-12 12:48:11] - aaron: how would they know he was sharing it? -Daniel
[2010-10-12 12:43:25] - Aaron: Ah, good point. I always thought Adrian was a mole from the site trying to get me banned.
-Paul[2010-10-12 12:34:39] - i'm pretty sure they will ban you from the site if they find out that you're sharing your password with other players, since obviously it's really bad diplomacy etiquette to have one user with access to multiple accounts - aaron
[2010-10-12 12:14:10] - If somebody can tell me where I can change my pw, I'll change it. -Paul
[2010-10-12 12:11:51] - Daniel: We can try to go faster, but I'm actually somewhat crunched on free time in general this week and I think you can be stopped if somebody spends enough time figuring out the right moves. -Paul
[2010-10-12 12:00:43] - I *think* i can onen paul's position for replacement, but not sure if i can manually insert someone into that spot. - mig
[2010-10-12 11:51:13] - Paul: true, we could try to make them go faster though. I imagine its partly just us not taking care of things in a timely fashion. I can try to find Mitch at work and see if we can make an effort to get some turns to process this week. Also just changing your pw to aar0n or something and telling aaron works too. -Daniel
[2010-10-12 11:47:41] - daniel: I'm leaving Saturday morning. I agree we're close, but the past few turns have taken a long time to go through. -Paul
[2010-10-12 11:40:18] - paul: just give him your password? ~a
[2010-10-12 11:35:58] - paul: When do you go on vacation? We seem pretty close. -daniel
[2010-10-12 11:34:00] - paul: I think the game master (miguel?) might have to organize it with the web site guy - aaron
[2010-10-12 11:02:30] - Colbert: Bush, Great President or Greatest? Interviewee: ummmm, I'm not so sure Colbert: I'll put you down for Great then.
[2010-10-12 10:23:18] - Aaron: I'm not sure how to go about the process of handing over control to you, though. You've done it before, right? -Paul
[2010-10-12 10:18:50] - Aaron: I think you would be a pretty ideal replacement, since you should be familiar with the areas under dispute and the participants involved. I'm assuming neither Mitch or Daniel would object either. -Paul
[2010-10-12 10:10:48] - paul: i'd be willing to take over if no one else volunteers - aaron
[2010-10-12 10:03:28] - Diplomacy people: I hate to do this, but does anybody want to take over for me in the 2010-6 game? It doesn't look like it's going to wrap up before I leave for my two week vacation (unless Daniel decides to accept a three way draw). -Paul
[2010-10-11 21:24:42] - xpovos: lol i love part 9 of the nacho recipe. this is really good reading - aaron
[2010-10-11 14:55:22] - Pierce: As long as Colbert has featured this poll on his show, I feel pretty safe.
-Paul[2010-10-11 14:54:41] - Stephen: Well, they do say "better", which doesn't mean that either has to be good, only that one has to suck less. -Paul
[2010-10-11 14:46:28] - paul: I find that online polls have a whichever-group-happens-to-decide-to-game-it bias. - pierce
[2010-10-11 14:33:54] - Paul: I hate how there's no third option. What if you don't think either one will be a particularly good president? - Stephen
[2010-10-11 14:10:16] - Pierce: Quite possibly, but I've found that a lot of the polls on the CNN website seem to have a "liberal bias", if you will, in that the results seem to reflect a 70/30 split of liberals to conservatives. -Paul
[2010-10-11 14:02:45] - paul: pretty sure the overwhelming majority of republicans would pick Bush, regardless of what I think about how ridiculous that is. - pierce
[2010-10-11 14:00:45] - Also, did anybody see the poll on the CNN website asking "Who will history show was a better president? George W. Bush or Barack Obama."? Shocked that 41% picked Bush. -Paul
[2010-10-11 13:59:23] - http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/11/zoolander-2-script-has-roles-for-ferrell-jonah-hill/?hpt=Sbin Zoolander 2 script ready. -Paul
[2010-10-11 13:07:39] - Stephen: I guess it's all in how you define work. I'm at home, but working harder than I do most days at the office. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-11 10:39:12] - weee. ~a
[2010-10-11 09:15:20] - Hurray! -Paul
[2010-10-11 08:36:33] - Happy being at work on a holiday day! - Stephen
[2010-10-10 20:35:34] - http://www.cracked.com/blog/cooking-your-doomed-relationship/ -- Xpovos
[2010-10-10 15:54:25] - That is cool but 1000 miles isn't that far. "The only accident, engineers said, was when one Google car was rear-ended while stopped at a traffic light." nice. ~a
[2010-10-10 04:27:01] - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html?_r=1 google's making some pretty significant advances with cars that can drive autonomously in traffic - aaron
[2010-10-09 15:42:23] - wow i'm very bored. somebody entertain me! ~a
[2010-10-09 09:35:09] - nice, i'm guessing that works much better as a 3 minute show than a 90 minute show. ~a
[2010-10-09 08:28:22] - a: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sUZ7hei5eA&feature=related ahh here's a fast-forwarded recap - aaron
[2010-10-09 08:18:03] - a: lauren cleri was the woman i was telling you about on the moment of truth. i looked around for the videos on youtube but most of them were removed by FOX on copyright grounds. there's a couple still up but they're not sliced up so they're kind of dragged out - aaron
[2010-10-08 14:43:34] - aaron: assume that people don't want to die, and death is typically the one who has to make them. when people are healthy and safe, it's hard to arrange for their early demise, but if this guy's imagining of obamacare kills them then death gets a freebie. - pierce
[2010-10-08 14:38:56] - i want to understand because it's a really cool costume so i'm sure his point is really really valid... i'm just too slow - aaron
[2010-10-08 14:38:23] - pierce: oh i get it, so obama kills people that death was going to have to kill? like, there's this old and sickly guy who was going to die of natural causes... and then... the lack of a health care system makes him die... doesn't death still have to get involved? i don't get it!! - aaron
[2010-10-08 13:52:29] - aaron: haha. it makes anti-obama sense if you think death's job is to kill people, not to process their paperwork after they die. - pierce
[2010-10-08 13:46:48] - if his sign just said something like "obama's health care plan kills people and my costume is appropriate" that would make a lot more sense... i think that's what he meant to say - aaron
[2010-10-08 13:46:00] - I'm trying to figure out a guy dressed up as death... saying "obamacare makes my job easier..."... that's pro-obama right? obamacare... means that death.. has less dead people he has to escort over the river styx?? or whatever death's job is? am i reading too much into this? - aaron
[2010-10-08 13:15:05] - I had a lot of fun reading this article: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/oct/28/elections-how-bad-democrats/ He approaches it from a very Democratic/liberal perspective, which is obviously different from mine, but does so in a readable and educating way. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-08 10:54:51] - a: awww that was the best one! i hate you yahoo answers - aaron
[2010-10-08 10:41:43] - paul: also by gender. (wtf? . . . the internet is losing its memory) ~a
[2010-10-08 10:37:56] - And by race, I clearly mean: Asian, Hispanic, Female, etc. -Paul
[2010-10-08 10:37:44] - we'll set up a state of the art gateway between the two computer networks that will convert our packetized information from one network paradigm to the other at the internet . . . protocol . . . level. ~a
[2010-10-08 10:37:21] - Not sure what kind of turnout you guys are expecting and what kind of games you are planning on playing, but it would be pretty cool if you could keep track of the win/loss statistics based on race just to see if we can draw any conclusions among ourselves. -Paul
[2010-10-08 10:29:28] - there will be two networks! ~a
[2010-10-08 09:21:22] - paul: it depends on your defintion of l - aaron
[2010-10-08 09:13:29] - I didn't know Starcraft 2 had lan support. -Paul
[2010-10-08 07:16:11] - aaron: Hey, I saw Starwreck. It was actually pretty entertaining. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-07 22:09:52] - http://www.ironsky.net/ in 1945, they went to the moon. in 2018, they're coming back - aaron
[2010-10-07 20:57:31] - i'm not sure if anyone else is experiencing it in 1v1, but it seems that protoss is extremely popular right now. - mig
[2010-10-07 17:46:45] - oh wait though, i forgot about the supply cost. i guess it's never that simple. blah. - aaron
[2010-10-07 17:18:16] - void rays are the same way, i was talking to daniel about that earlier today. it's easy for me to forget that zerg units are cheap and i need lots and lots of them. i'm sure it would happen to me with marines, too, if i played terran - aaron
[2010-10-07 17:15:02] - mig: but honestly, yeah that's one problem i have as zerg. is i see like, four stalkers... or five marauders... and i think, oh, i should be able to take that out with a handful of zerglings. and when i can't, it feels OP. but i forget that four stalkers costs as much as 28 zerglings. that's a lot of zerglings. i never get that many zerglings. - aaron
[2010-10-07 15:57:08] - mig: yes, well, that's true. but one marauder will kill one zergling. marauders are OP - aaron
[2010-10-07 15:55:43] - xpovos: I used to get the Breakfast Club and Breakfast at Tiffany's mixed up, before I saw one of them - vinnie
[2010-10-07 15:35:16] - and if they swarm marauders and get a surround, marauders have no chance. - mig
[2010-10-07 15:33:15] - marauders don't crush zerlglings at all, they're horribly inefficient at killing them. - mig
[2010-10-07 15:25:40] - matt: that said i tend to go muta/baneling against terran just cause it's literally the ONLY build i can find that survives against MMM at my current skill level - aaron
[2010-10-07 15:24:53] - matt: marauders crush zerglings, marauders crush hydras, marauders crush roaches. at least roaches take more crushes to get crushed - aaron
[2010-10-07 14:54:33] - Matt: They're a lot more useful against Protoss, true. I actually don't mind them much against Terran, though, because even though Marauders crush them, it's not as bad as hellions crush zerglings. -Paul
[2010-10-07 14:36:53] - Paul: in what matchup? I find them unusable against terran due to marauders. Against toss, most toss are massing stalkers to dissuade mutas, so you're focusing on ling/hydra rather than roach hydra. And I'm not convinced I like the passive play you get from going roaches in ZvZ yet - Matt
[2010-10-07 14:34:49] - paul:
it's the precise word that fits in both situations. don't be such a curmudgeon. - pierce[2010-10-07 14:33:39] - Matt: Oh, wow. I actually love roaches, but not as a surprise rush. They work so well with hydralisks (they soak up the damage while the hydras deal it). I have heard a lot more complaints about roaches being 2 supply than their range being small. -Paul
[2010-10-07 14:20:07] - Also, keep in mind that some of that winrate for Zerg should be attributed to few people actually playing zerg. I feel like the race distribution has changed in the last few weeks, but when I was learning protoss, >60% of my matches were against terran. I just did random things vs zerg because I never faced them enough to develop a strategy.
[2010-10-07 14:17:32] - Pierce: Was "regressive" on your word of the day calendar yesterday or something?
-Paul[2010-10-07 14:16:14] - Paul: I haven't looked at wishlists, but increasing roach range seems like a great buff. As it is, roaches are kind of a novelty unit that aren't very useful in anything but a surprise rush. And I'm really surprised protoss do so well vs terran. I've heard that terran late game is very weak againts toss tho, so maybe that's it - Matt
[2010-10-07 14:02:23] - Pierce: I appreciate the effort, and especially you giving me the benefit of the doubt on that kind of subject, but racism is not something that tends to be on my radar, and tends to be something I dismiss even when it comes on. Top of the food chain bias, probably. That and I'm a horrible person. But, no, that's definitely not it. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-07 14:00:43] - Maybe Simple Minds and Don't You Forget About Me got jumbled in there too, because it's definitely musical. And I think Simpsons had something to do with it. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-07 14:00:43] - Pierce: Sixteen Candles and Breakfast Club are different... ~gurkie
[2010-10-07 13:58:34] - xpovos: might also be that both are notorious for regressive asian stereotypes. - pierce
[2010-10-07 13:58:23] - Stephen: Definitely not the song, although that was on my mind as I had this thought process earlier. It seems likely that The Breakfast Club is one of the culprits. But still no clue for me as to how this all got jumbled together. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-07 13:50:41] - Xpovos: Were you thinking of The Breakfast Club? I'm sure you aren't thinking of the Deep Blue Something song, which just shouts "mid-1990's". - Stephen
[2010-10-07 13:47:05] - So, apparently for the past 20 years I've thought Breakfast at Tiffany's was an early 1980's John Hughes film. Can someone help explain how I came to this misconception? Because I'm at a loss -- Xpovos
[2010-10-07 13:27:50] - Aaron: Oh man, it would be totally awesome if they had the same range as marines and marauders, but I totally don't see that happening. My guess is they are still going to be able to get kited, but can more easily go two deep. -Paul
[2010-10-07 13:19:03] - paul: well if they can outrange marines/marauders it could be really big. you could possibly even kite them if you keep your roaches on creep - aaron
[2010-10-07 13:18:18] - paul: yeah, that's what i was thinking. maybe terran's win percentages are being dragged down in the bronze/silver leagues artifically, because of all of the "just finished mission mode on novice" terrans bringing down the average. it depends on how they account for player skill - aaron
[2010-10-07 13:10:25] - mig: And I don't recall seeing a roach range increase being on anybody's list of asked for buffs (and I have seen a lot). It'll be interesting to see how big of a difference it makes. -Paul
[2010-10-07 13:09:14] - Aaron: I'm not sure how they tried to even out player skill, but I wonder if they suspect that the reason why zerg seems to do well is because the lesser-skilled players are not playing zerg. -Paul
[2010-10-07 13:05:41] - paul: yeah i agree, i'm a little surprised that even though the zerg win percentages are pretty close to 50%, they're beefing up zerg anyway. i wonder if there's some logic that isn't being presented by the numbers here - aaron
[2010-10-07 13:04:48] - paul: yeah i'm surprised a damage nerf wasn't considered. - mig
[2010-10-07 13:02:57] - mig: I like the concept of reapers, but I think they do too much damage. If they catch you with your pants down with two reapers, it should be an annoying harassment strategy, not gg. -Paul
[2010-10-07 13:01:20] - by the time you can get repears to do a quick strike raid with nitro packs you probably could have gotten banshees instead. - mig
[2010-10-07 13:00:21] - especially with roach range being increased. - mig
[2010-10-07 12:59:51] - paul: yeah i am too, I do think they should just remove them at the game at this point though, because they're essentially going to be worthless now. - mig
[2010-10-07 12:58:23] - mig: I'm a fan of reducing reaper rushes. In my experience, they are far too effective unless players specifically do things to try to stop them. -Paul
[2010-10-07 12:57:10] - mig: It's interesting that in Platinum (which I am), the zerg appear to win more games than they lose against Protoss and Terran. -Paul
[2010-10-07 12:56:44] - mig: i think you said before that TvZ was a harder matchup for you than TvP. Or in other words, that zerg did better against you than protoss. I guess they found the opposite; that protoss are kind of OP against terran in most of the leagues - aaron
[2010-10-07 12:56:16] - it's seems to be more problematic in the lower leagues, so I guess it's just Protoss is just the easiest race to do cheese strats with. - mig
[2010-10-07 12:53:37] - not sure how I feel about roaches getting more range (as long as it's less than hydras), but the terran changes seem fair. I find it strange that there seems to be problems with PvT being too much in P's favor since I think that's my easiest matchup to deal with. - mig
[2010-10-07 12:50:33] - http://battle.net/sc2/en/blog/882511#blog some statistical analysis on various matchups and changes incoming for the next patch. - mig
[2010-10-07 12:40:44] - a: that's because i'm closed-sourcing it!!! that source code is mine you hear me! all mine - aaron
[2010-10-07 12:35:03] - yes it is. for some reason ocho isn't though. ~a
[2010-10-07 12:13:54] - i figured out how to balance zerg! auto-cloaking for banelings. also it would be really fun. i'm going to go fix it, is starcraft2 on github? - aaron
[2010-10-07 11:47:44] - it might! we can always test it out. ~a
[2010-10-07 11:39:51] - a: Not unless it's magically going to make my videos play.
-Paul[2010-10-07 11:17:56] - paul: ubuntu maverick comes out this weekend. were you still interested in upgrading your netbook? hardy is getting a little old. :-) ~a
[2010-10-07 11:09:28] - pierce: Those are both pretty good. I like the scrabble one better, if only because it was easier to decipher. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-07 11:00:22] - this is also an excellent example of the meme. - pierce
[2010-10-07 10:58:35] - when mattel announced that they were going to allow proper nouns in scrabble, this comment was the winning response. - pierce
[2010-10-07 10:53:52] - matryoshka is impossible to pronounce! i guess that's why we call them russian dolls. File:Russian.dolls.hugeset.arp.jpg . . . omg, is that . . . 36? ~a
[2010-10-07 10:25:03] - aaron: OK. I've seen the meme, but it hasn't been front and center (which is probably why he looks familiar--yet I have no idea who he is). Grin, grin, frown. Matryoshka! -- Xpovos
[2010-10-07 10:20:00] - xpovos: the meme is always about putting something in something else, the punchline being that with a matryoshka doll, the joke is obvious, since it already involves putting a doll in another doll - aaron
[2010-10-07 10:19:02] - xpovos: he's xzibit, and there's this "yo dawg" meme which centers around his show pimp my ride, where he would say things like "yo dawg i heard you liked bowling, so i put a bowling alley in your car so you can bowl while you drive" - aaron
[2010-10-06 22:35:07] - aaron: Care to pay it forward? The man looks incredibly familiar, but I can't place him, so the juxtaposition is naturally lost on me. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 22:13:58] - ah, nice meta humor. ~a
[2010-10-06 20:01:01] - http://i.imgur.com/2jPnt.jpg i needed to have this one explained to me... for shame - aaron
[2010-10-06 17:27:56] - as another example, does a spare tire have no value? - mig
[2010-10-06 17:17:33] - Pierce: Although I do agree that it's the end of the (work) day, so time to run off and get some dinner. -Paul
[2010-10-06 17:17:01] - Pierce: Yeah, like Aaron, I don't quite follow. Something only has value if it's used? Does that mean money has no value until it's used? If that's the case, I'll take everything valueless off your hands for you. -Paul
[2010-10-06 17:15:07] - doing business with, but that doesn't translate at all to "insurance is not a healthy part of the free market.". - mig
[2010-10-06 17:14:37] - "you get insurance because you don't know if you'll need to make a claim." That is what gives insurance VALUE. If I need to make a claim there is VALUE in knowing that I can do so. And that doesn't make me "uninformed" about the value of what i'm getting. Certainly i can make an uniformed decision because i didn't do the proper research on the insurance company i'm
[2010-10-06 17:13:38] - pierce: i know this is coming off a little pedantic, but seriously, any purchase you make in a "healthy market" is based on potential value, and insurance is no different, except that some forms of insurance pay off less frequently. (not all, i might add. life insurance pays off 100% of the time) - aaron
[2010-10-06 17:12:11] - pierce: for that matter, you can't prove i'll survive long enough to enjoy any clear material good i purchase. i could be struck by a meteor before i get in the driver's seat, and then i'll have spent that money for nothing - aaron
[2010-10-06 17:11:35] - pierce: i don't follow. informed consumers can't make decisions based on potential value? does that mean stock has zero value? what about food, surgery? or a car? none of these items have a known value. you can't prove food will be essential to my nourishment or survival. you can't prove that surgery will extend my life. - aaron
[2010-10-06 17:09:24] - Paul: Agreed. I'd say a fair approximation to 'intrinsic' value is the mean of the perceived value of the totality of all sentient creatures. This just makes it clear why knowing the intrinsic is so hard because it means knowing (approximately) not just what you value the value as, but what *everyone* else does too. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 17:08:31] - this hits a little too close to home, slashdot. ~a
[2010-10-06 17:06:14] - so suffice it to say, I respectfully hate you. - pierce
[2010-10-06 17:05:46] - that's the nutshell version, but I know you disagree and it's the end of the day. - pierce
[2010-10-06 17:04:23] - Q.E.D. insurance is not a healthy part of the free market. - pierce
[2010-10-06 17:04:07] - paul: insurance has no value. insurance with no claims has zero value. insurance with claims has some value. you get insurance because you don't know if you'll need to make a claim. therefore you are not an informed consumer as to the value of what you're buying. informed consumers are a fundamental tenet of a healthy market. - pierce
[2010-10-06 17:03:07] - Xpovos: "Paul's points presuppose rational individuals with a relatively good grasp on what the intrinsic value should be" Not necessarily, I'm also a believe in the "value is determined by how much people are willing to pay for it" camp. -Paul
[2010-10-06 17:01:37] - And they're usually quite happy with the trade until such time as reality comes crashing into their perception and shows them a closer dose of that intrinsic value than they really wanted to see. Ignorance is bliss. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 17:00:49] - Pierce: And I've yet to hear why it doesn't apply. You can't just state that it doesn't apply and not explain why. -Paul
[2010-10-06 17:00:42] - I think the disjoint between what I'm saying and what Paul is saying is that Paul's points presuppose rational individuals with a relatively good grasp on what the intrinsic value should be. That is, the participants can see fairly clearly. I have no such illusions. Most people are morons and easily blinded and led astray. That doesn't mean they don't perceive value.
[2010-10-06 17:00:18] - Pierce: So let me get this straight, you're saying that insurance or fire service has no value? -Paul
[2010-10-06 16:59:43] - "all costs" being an interesting turn of phrase under the circumstances. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:59:04] - paul: I'm saying the market principle doesn't always apply. You're the one who holds to it at all costs typically. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:58:40] - While the mystical intrinsic value (which can be zero) is off gallivanting in places we can't see clearly, and can only make approximations towards. That's the fundamental of trade. So, all it takes to make a trade imbalance is a wildly misunderstood intrinsic, a flawed perspective, or force. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 16:58:31] - Pierce: The peace of mind is a result of being able to file a claim. -Paul
[2010-10-06 16:57:58] - Pierce: By your rationale, it's not circular at all. You say people buy things because they have value, so if people buy insurance, doesn't it have to have value? Or are you saying people sometimes buy things that have no value? -Paul
[2010-10-06 16:56:59] - pierce: I'm pretty sure I'm not, actually. There are multiple concurrent values of 'value'. At least two perceived and an intrinsic. If I did not percieve the value of a widget to be at least $20, I wouldn't spend $20 on it. On the corollary, if the company did not value $20 more than their widget, they wouldn't sell. Thusly, we're both looking at shadows in caves.
[2010-10-06 16:52:23] - pierce: I am? I'm just as shocked as you are. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 16:49:54] - paul: it's referring to miguel saying people pay for peace of mind with insurance. peace of mind by itself has no coverage in the event of a claim. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:49:06] - xpovos: so value is variable and can be zero even if someone bought into it. eat that, paul! xpovos is on my side! - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:48:30] - Pierce: "no actual coverage in the event of a claim" What does this refer to? -Paul
[2010-10-06 16:48:20] - *"isn't that what a con artist convinces other people to do?" - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:48:17] - pierce: People buy things because they perceive value. A con artists convinces a person that a thing has some value when it had none, or at least that it has more value than reality. In some senses, this is just like marketing. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 16:48:07] - Pierce:
[2010-10-06 16:46:24] - paul: "insurance has value or else people wouldn't buy it"? is it not possible to buy something with no value? isn't that what a con artist does? your reasoning is circular there... the market principle is that people buy things because they have value. you can't also say things have value because people buy them. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:39:40] - Pierce: Luckily, rich people don't have a quality of life to worry about.
-Paul[2010-10-06 16:38:06] - Pierce: Assuming insurance companies make money (and last I checked, they do), then I'm pretty sure it's possible that the total of the $75 fee that the people would be paying could be much greater than the value of the one person's house who burned down. -Paul
[2010-10-06 16:35:33] - Pierce: I didn't buy this argument before with health care and I don't buy it now. Insurance does have a value, or else people wouldn't buy it. -Paul
[2010-10-06 16:35:30] - pierce: a company can't continually deny claims without losing it's piece of mind value. people will then find other alternatives or just not bother with insurance if there is no competition. either way, i don't see how the free makret principles are undermined here. - mig
[2010-10-06 16:31:18] - mig: that doesn't change the schroedinger effect, and I doubt people would pay what they do for insurance if all they got was peace of mind but no actual coverage in the event of a claim. seems like a fairly weak counterpoint. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:28:23] - you don't see any companies offering insurance coverage for damages from a Xenu attack. Because nobody values such coverage. - mig
[2010-10-06 16:27:10] - insurance has value if it people decide to willlingly spend money on it, as they value the piece of mind that certain risks are averted. There's no undermining of free market economics at all. - mig
[2010-10-06 16:20:03] - a: right you are. glad that's corrected in my head. this is a regressive lump-sum tax. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:17:56] - this isn't even a flat tax i don't think. a flat tax is generally a % of household income. but, on the other hand, most municipal fees are independent of your income. ~a
[2010-10-06 16:11:12] - paul: also, I don't believe flat taxes are optimal. poorer people wouldn't have to pay the full $75, but richer people would have to pay more as they can afford it. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:10:19] - paul: as I said, it'd take a lot of people saving $75 to make up for what this guy just lost, especially since it's actually lost in real terms rather than lost into a different part of the economy. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:08:42] - paul: the actual value of what they're providing is in a schroedinger's cat state of being either zero or [claim value], which undermines the mathematical basis of free market economics. - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:08:01] - paul: availability is not a service. it's the potential for a service. it's insurance... I can pay an insurance company a billion dollars and they don't have to do a damn thing for it except be available for a legitimate claim (which costs them nothing until such a claim exists). - pierce
[2010-10-06 16:02:25] - Pierce: You don't think having $75 more a month wouldn't increase quality of life, especially in rural areas? That could probably make a decent difference to people struggling to make ends meet. -Paul
[2010-10-06 16:01:11] - Pierce: What evidence is there that it doesn't apply? I don't see how "the availability of fire service" is so radically different from other services. -Paul
[2010-10-06 15:58:56] - Pierce: "That pragmatic"? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I think a lot of people would be upset if their house was on fire and the fire department which they opted out of didn't help them. Not sure how that has any bearing on anything, though. -Paul
[2010-10-06 15:53:25] - pierce: nobody is ever that pragmatic when they take any risk and it bites them in the ass. - mig
[2010-10-06 15:51:26] - Isn't everything a product or a service? -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 15:43:56] - pierce: This city FD seems to function similarly to private home security alarm companies, which I do consider a service/product, so I'm not really following what you think is an "abstraction". - mig
[2010-10-06 15:27:14] - paul: and I'd like you to maximize quality of life, not "personal freedom to choose whether or not to lose everything in a fire" which doesn't seem like much of a freedom to me. - pierce
[2010-10-06 15:25:02] - paul: here's the problem with what you said: "things they don't want" refers here to an abstraction (the availability of fire services), not a product or service. what evidence is there that your ideals for market behavior apply to an abstraction like that? - pierce
[2010-10-06 15:24:42] - paul: in all sincerity, what do you think are the odds that the average person opting out would remain that pragmatic when it was their house on fire? - pierce
[2010-10-06 15:23:33] - So awesome that I hate to ask the question that breaks continuity. A koala? -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 15:22:20] - aaron: Awesome, awesome toy. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 15:21:33] - Paul: But clearly everyone wants fire protection! Right? On an side note, I really hope his insurance company denies his claim. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 15:14:41] - Pierce: I think the upside is that people don't have to pay money for things they don't want. -Paul
[2010-10-06 15:10:08] - aaron: I've been reading about that fire-fighting article in a lot of places. I'm just really happy the fire department stuck to their guns in that instance. Like you said, "no pay no spray". -Paul
[2010-10-06 15:06:04] - http://i.imgur.com/Jzhzb.jpg the avenging narwhal play set - aaron
[2010-10-06 15:04:00] - especially considering that $75 would've gone to the fire department which would spend it on something else (yay markets), whereas this guy's property was wealth that is now gone forever. - pierce
[2010-10-06 15:03:15] - aaron: sort of. but more like this. budweiser and camping chick not included. ~a
[2010-10-06 15:02:30] - aaron: I can't tell if you're joking. what happens if you have opt-in coverage is that the people who opt in get worse coverage (economy of scale) and the opt-outs die or lose everything they own (or expect to get protected anyway). what's the upside exactly? there'd have to be a lot of people saving $75 in that county to make up for what this guy just lost. - pierce
[2010-10-06 14:57:44] - pierce: pro - firefighters prevented two houses from burning down, instead of just one!! now that's efficiency - aaron
[2010-10-06 14:57:13] - pierce: well, i think it's good that tennessee is given the freedom for their citizens to have "opt-in fire coverage". maybe it's a terrible idea or maybe it's an awesome idea, but i think having this kind of freedom at the state-level is a good thing because it lets us experiment with crazy ideas like this one, and figure out the pros and cons - aaron
[2010-10-06 14:54:27] - what's dumb is an optional fee-based system in the first place, that inevitably leads to a situation like this. you would've thought we'd have learned our lesson with the circus that was free-market fire companies in the 1800s, but damned if we're not doomed to repeat history. - pierce
[2010-10-06 14:52:57] - notable about the fire incident: the policy of the fire department would've been to go in anyway if a human life was in danger. thus, I have to reluctantly agree with what the fire department did. you don't pay for firefighting, you pay for firefighters to be available to fight any fires that occur. if you don't pay in advance, the system breaks down. - pierce
[2010-10-06 14:52:43] - aaron: I got into an argument about the burning home yesterday. My friend didn't seem to understand that the Fire Department was subsidized by city taxes, and that the home's owners lived in the county (i.e. hadn't paid a cent for the FD). - Stephen
[2010-10-06 14:15:17] - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/06/opinion/06gross.html Debt reduction that we've seen has been mostly a mirage? -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 14:06:43] - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/ no pay no spray; firefighters let home burn. i don't have a particularly strong opinion on this piece but i thought it was worth posting - aaron
[2010-10-06 14:01:47] - a: http://www.thechicecologist.com/2010/02/sun-chips-compostable-bag/ do they look like this? - aaron
[2010-10-06 12:34:44] - I'm molesting some bags of sunchips at subway. I'm guessing theyre the new quieter bags though. ~a
[2010-10-06 12:12:41] - a: oh! how scientific of you - aaron
[2010-10-06 12:03:51] - haha, i thought we could just find a bag of chips. ~a
[2010-10-06 11:51:55] - a: okay. you bark a dog in my ear and i will electric drill in your ear and we'll see who hurts more - aaron
[2010-10-06 11:06:12] - a: Certainly a reasonable interpretation. In which case this move makes essentially no difference to their flagging sales, or ultimately, really, the environment. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 10:49:07] - sales of the sun chips were substantially down because health fads come and go. ~a
[2010-10-06 09:54:27] - a: They indicated in my original article that the decision was because sales of the Sun Chips were substantially down. Correlation, not causation, but it's the market response to the perceived market problem. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 09:39:38] - "four times as loud"? 10^((96-77)/10) = 80 times as much power. which doesn't tell us much. i think we need to do an experiment. ~a
[2010-10-06 09:30:08] - not everybody feels the same way though, lots of people at work leave their phones on a loud setting. sometimes they even leave them ringing at their desk when they use the restroom. and don't get me started on the people putting fish in the microwave - aaron
[2010-10-06 09:28:06] - xpovos: yeah, if i understand the decibel scale i think 96 is four times as loud as 77. i don't think it matters how brief the noise is, i wouldn't buy the chips at work if they were that loud. i set my phone on vibrate for the same reason. we work in an open area where noise travels easily, and i don't want to disturb people. - aaron
[2010-10-06 09:21:10] - 150 is "Chest Wall Begins to Vibrate" so it can't be that loud. . . . "a market response to a market problem" haha, are you sure? are you sure it wasn't a market overreaction to a non-issue? ~a
[2010-10-06 08:28:30] - All that said, Pepsi/FritoLay took a market response to a market problem, I'm not upset with them. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 08:27:48] - Other factors to consider are the duration of the noise--how long does it take to open/rustle/move the bag to access chips and proximity to the ears. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-06 08:27:33] - Yes, 95db is quite loud. But 77 (standard bag) is pretty loud too, from my perspective. And granted, we're talking a log scale here, so 96 is way more than 77. But really, in either case we're talking about a loud activity that got louder. -- Xpovos
[2010-10-05 20:18:53] - yeah, this sounds like one of those things like the mcdonald's coffee where it seems really obvious that it's ridiculous until you look at the details. - pierce
[2010-10-05 19:10:46] - and http://www.esoundproof.com/Screens/Basics/Academy/Sound%20Measurement/Decibels/dBChart.aspx - aaron
[2010-10-05 19:10:35] - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703960004575427150103293906.html - aaron
[2010-10-05 19:10:20] - xpovos: after reading the original article i'm not sure that's fair. have you tried the bags yourself? 95 decibels is <a href="http://www.esoundproof.com/Screens/Basics/Academy/Sound%20Measurement/Decibels/dBChart.aspx>very very loud</a> - aaron
[2010-10-05 18:21:29] - See, America, this is why you can't have nice things. Because you're a bunch of fucking whiners. You know me. You know I'm not exactly "Mr. Green". But WHAT THE FUCK is wrong with people? -- Xpovos
[2010-10-05 18:15:44] - oh and mike. mike is diamond, but he's not here either. and he's random. ~a
[2010-10-05 17:17:58] - Matt: Mark might be (he is not on the message board), but otherwise I think that's the case. -Paul
[2010-10-05 17:04:02] - But miguel is the only diamond? - Matt
[2010-10-05 17:01:34] - Sorry for the random line break. -Paul
[2010-10-05 17:00:59] - He changes WoW characters like every 5 minutes.
-Paul[2010-10-05 17:00:37] - a: How can you not see him online?
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