prev <-> next
[2020-06-03 14:27:00] - forget it. ~a
[2020-06-03 14:26:47] - a: I have no first hand knowledge, but the news seems to imply otherwise. -paul
[2020-06-03 14:26:39] - hmm, i guess that wasn't only in georgetown, was it. bleh. whatever. nevermind. ~a
[2020-06-03 14:25:29] - right, i'm talking about the blm protests. (i guess this might be unfair, but anyways) if we ignore what happened in georgetown (because i honestly don't know if those were the same people or not) do you support the blm protests in dc? ~a
[2020-06-03 14:24:40] - the ones on monday and tuesday, yes. i think things got pretty violent on sunday, but since i wasn't there i can't speak to if those were the same people or not. ~a
[2020-06-03 14:24:29] - a: I mean, I wouldn't support people protesting for white supremacy no matter how peaceful they were. I support their right to, but not their cause. -Paul
[2020-06-03 14:23:42] - a: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52874652 Have the DC protesters been peaceful? -Paul
[2020-06-03 14:23:24] - the implication in your last sentence is "no", but i can't quite parse it exactly. ~a
[2020-06-03 14:22:48] - so, no? ~a
[2020-06-03 14:22:22] - a: I support them more than I support violent ones. If you are going to protest, do it peacefully. I wouldn't support peaceful protesters that support something I disagree with. -Paul
[2020-06-03 14:21:56] - paul: peaceful blm protesters. the ones that are in dc this week, do you support them? ~a
[2020-06-03 14:21:31] - Daniel: These protesters are murdering people in the streets too. Would you support protesting against them? -Paul
[2020-06-03 14:21:24] - paul: do you support peaceful protesters? ~a
[2020-06-03 14:20:48] - Daniel: I said: "I am all for fixing this problem with police brutality and I am pretty disgusted with a lot of the activities I've seen from certain police departments in how they've responded". That doesn't mean I have to support the protesters. If a bunch of hardcore Justin Amash supporters were going around rioting and looting, then I wouldn't support them either. -Paul
[2020-06-03 14:12:56] - paul: lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. ~a
[2020-06-03 14:11:44] - paul: "mlk was pretty notable for his peaceful protests" mlk was also notable for being confronted with "white moderates" who fucking hated his protests. "i agree with you in the goal you seek, but i cannot agree with your methods of direct action" is from letter from the birmingham jail. "shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will" is this situation here. ~a
[2020-06-03 14:03:41] - Also https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-poll-exclusive/exclusive-most-americans-sympathize-with-protests-disapprove-of-trumps-response-reuters-ips seems to imply that on the whole the protests are not 'counter productive' -Daneil
[2020-06-03 14:03:16] - paul: "making it hard to support their cause." This is the most wtf thing ever. There cause is to stop police from murdering people in the street. I can't even conceive how one doesn't 100% support this. -Daniel
[2020-06-03 14:02:39] - every protest i've been to has been peaceful (on the side of the protesters. damn, it sucks i have to qualify that, doesn't it?). ~a
[2020-06-03 14:02:28] - a: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/david-dorn-st-louis-police-shot-trnd/index.html This seems just as tragic, if not more so, than Floyd's death. If wringing my hands over stuff like this is something you want to dismiss. So be it. I refuse to ignore the bad acts being perpetrated by the protesters. -paul
[2020-06-03 14:01:08] - a: MLK was pretty notable for his peaceful protests. The better comparison would be Malcom X. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:59:27] - "They are, in my opinion, making it hard to support their cause" fuck, paul, people said the same about mlk. you can wring your hands all you want, i will not. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:58:15] - paul: high risk high reward. not to get too high and mighty, but . . . https://i.redd.it/dchqlfys2c251.jpg . . . and civil rights protests of the 60s, those sounded pretty risky. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:58:12] - a: Like, I am all for fixing this problem with police brutality and I am pretty disgusted with a lot of the activities I've seen from certain police departments in how they've responded.... but I'm also pretty disgusted by a lot of protester activities too. They are, in my opinion, making it hard to support their cause. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:57:00] - a: Well, you're right that I think that's a relatively useless gesture too, but I think so is protesting.... except in this case I think it might actually be counter productive. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:56:17] - a: As near as I can tell, none of those tea party protests involved rioting or looting or tear gas or cops with body shields. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:56:17] - ah, i figured "oh make a social media post, that always works" was sarcasm. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:55:35] - a: Sarcasm? On my part? There was no sarcasm. -paul
[2020-06-03 13:55:15] - a: Although, actually, I do wonder if those things might actually be more impactful. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:54:59] - paul: it's basically like the "tea party" protest we went to, but without the kid waving his pants-flag . . . a flag made out of a pair of pants. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:54:57] - ah sarcasm. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:54:47] - a: There's a lot less you can do: Change your Facebook profile picture. Make an all black instagram post. Neither of those are likely to result in you getting harmed or arrested. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:52:26] - paul: i think black lives matter and this was literally the least i could do. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:51:48] - a: "should I skip tonight?" That sounds like it's a decision entirely up to you. I wouldn't be going to these protests even without Coronavirus, so I'm not sure the appeal. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:51:45] - paul: right. i've never been put in a position were i'd have to wave good-bye to all of my friends at work, and start anew at a new job, or hell be unemployed, or even be forced to move. that sounds scary. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:50:28] - Daniel: I think the difficult answer is that it takes a lot of courage to step apart and stand against the crowd. -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:49:02] - Daniel: APAB? I mean, can't everything you are saying be directed at the protesters too? If it's just a few bad apples, why aren't the other peaceful protesters stopping them? -Paul
[2020-06-03 13:46:39] - daniel: "I'm just super frustrated at the lack of anger from 'good cops' towards 'bad cops'." it is very disappointing, and i'm frustrated as well, but i try to put myself in their shoes. it's a hard position to be in when your life is literally on the line, and you see something non-life-threatening happen (not george floyd, but some other bs). it's almost like being in a war zone every day. it'll mess with you, i'm guessing. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:43:45] - I'm just super frustrated at the lack of anger from "good cops" towards "bad cops". I do recognize that there have been some actions taken - the MN four getting fired, lots of "reviews", the Lousiville police chief getting fired but c'mon. Why aren't more mayors / police chiefs / station chiefs(don't knwo the term) make public statements about being ashamed of their fellow officers, that they expected better etc -Daniel
[2020-06-03 13:43:22] - daniel: "Why aren't they going WTF GUYS". they are? i've seen police chiefs joining protests, i've seen other police chiefs who publicly fired some of their forces. it doesn't stop there . . . some police chiefs that are responsible for shitty behavior are getting canned. ~a
[2020-06-03 13:41:13] - If a police officer is to afraid to do the right thing are they a good cop or just a bad cop of a different sort? I don't think all of them are directly malacious but if the rest are just cowards of a different sort then that might disqualify them from being good. -Daniel
[2020-06-03 13:39:14] - a: https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/gvqh0g/police_shove_make_ap_journalists_stop_covering/fsqcw0n/ All is still a strong word. But there are so many things happening in so many cities right now that its hard for me to excuse the good ones. Why aren't they going WTF GUYS. Why aren't the police chiefs yelling at people publicly in the morning to cut this shit out? I posit that they might be less good than we hoped. -Daniel
[2020-06-03 13:19:31] - paul: should I skip tonight? ~a
[2020-06-03 13:02:07] - https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/protests-pandemic/612460/ Looks like some attention is being paid to the dangers of Coronavirus spread through these protests. -Paul
[2020-06-03 12:54:33] - paul: curfew was at 7, plenty of time to bike home and grab dinner. ~a
[2020-06-03 00:56:15] - a: No SC2? -Paul
[2020-06-02 21:34:50] - a: good luck! -Daniel
[2020-06-02 20:59:32] - i'm headed back in again tonight. text me if you want to get pictures. otherwise, i'll end up sending them all to paul again. ~a
[2020-06-02 20:48:06] - a: You didn't, but that was the implication I got considering all the pushback from you about my concerns about Coronavirus spread among protesters. -Paul
[2020-06-02 20:26:21] - daniel: Ok speech, but he's got no credibility on this subject. - mig
[2020-06-02 20:13:47] - "no increased chance of Coronavirus spread" where did I say that. ~a
[2020-06-02 20:12:21] - Daniel: Sure. This time around, though, I thought Adrian was arguing that there was no increased chance of Coronavirus spread, which seemed wrong to me. -Paul
[2020-06-02 20:07:07] - Paul: And perhaps those that protested a few weeks ago to reopen things also felt that it was worth that risk but for those people I think it is not worth the risk so I question their judgement / decision making ability. However this is getting back to our previous debate from a few days ago. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 20:05:58] - Paul: I don't think anyone would say the protests are good social distancing or are good in terms of dealing with the pandemic. I think people would say that protesting the police murdering people is worth the risk of getting covid. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 19:50:45] - paul: i'm concerned as well. sorry if i didn't say that. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:50:07] - https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/02/politics/surgeon-general-floyd-protests-coronavirus/index.html "the large crowds have made it difficult to social distance" I guess the Surgeon General is concerned, at least. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:48:21] - "magically" yes, i forgot about magic. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:47:37] - paul: ok i don't think i said any of those things. remember, i said on facebook you should go across white's ferry. so fun! also, those people saying those things in april probably aren't saying them in june. also, face masks. also outside. also etc. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:47:22] - a: But I'm no scientist. I guess everything magically changed a week or so ago. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:46:25] - a: Okay, well, I guess I find it hard to believe that these protests count as social distancing since I've constantly been told things like I can't drive my family to the Shenandoah mountains for the weekend or go to a barbershop to get my haircut or hang out on the beach no matter how far away we stay from other people. -paul
[2020-06-02 19:36:39] - paul: everybody? no. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:33:57] - a: And everybody else there was as well? -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:32:42] - imo i was practicing social distancing. sorry i didn't send you enough pictures. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:32:05] - a: I don't think I've seen any photos of the protests where anybody has been practicing what I would call social distancing. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:29:44] - i don't know. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:27:30] - a: Uh... do I not understand what social distancing distancing is, then? -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:26:09] - paul: if everybody is wearing masks, and social distancing, and outside, and the death rate is as low as it is, sure go ahead and protest illegal treatment by police. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:25:05] - a: "you didn't seem to care as much about masks or social distancing when the re-open protesters were doing their thing in april." Because everybody else was doing it for me? It's the same reason I don't feel compelled to come on here and say Trump is stupid or Kim Jon Un is a bad person. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:23:33] - a: Okay... I don't want to rehash old arguments, so I'll just say it's kinda weird that before this all blew up everybody was pretty adamant about how stupid it was to end the lockdown and now everybody seems to think mass gatherings are AOK. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:23:02] - "You honestly think there's no added danger from people gathering like that as long as most of them wear face masks" i didn't say that, and i don't believe that, no. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:22:34] - paul: 5. you didn't seem to care as much about masks or social distancing when the re-open protesters were doing their thing in april. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:21:51] - a: I thought the change was in April. It doesn't really change my main point, though. You honestly think there's no added danger from people gathering like that as long as most of them wear face masks? -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:20:39] - a: Um... honestly, it's really hard to tell. I think out of the people who seem like protesters, I see about twice as many people with masks as I do those without, but most I just can't see their faces. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:19:19] - paul: 4. also, it's june. i'm worried about a second wave as much as the next guy, but deaths are WAY down. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:17:58] - paul: you're right and you're wrong. 1. they aren't social distancing, right. 2. they do have masks on, wrong. 3. they're outside. they have 2 out of 3. i say, it's a win. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:16:38] - a: I would rather walk through my neighborhood with no mask on at all than be packed shoulder to shoulder with everybody with a mask on. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:16:26] - paul: many? how many? of a group of (non social-distancing, i'll grant you) dozens of protesters, i think i can only see one person in addition to the megaphone user without a mask. unless you're counting the national guard. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:16:22] - we've come a long way from march, paul. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:16:14] - paul: that was march. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:15:56] - a: And masks aren't a complete solution. I mean, we're just a few weeks removed from "Hey, don't wear masks because they do more harm than good". I don't know if anybody thinks they completely eliminate the risks of congregating in tight quarters with thousands of people. -paul
[2020-06-02 19:13:30] - a: Sure, but there are other protests going on and the picture from your link has many protesters wearing no masks. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:07:39] - paul: everybody i saw at the protest last night was wearing a mask. i think i've told you this multiple times. ~a
[2020-06-02 19:06:58] - a: First comment: "None of them are wearing facemasks? Jesus christ." Goes back to my comment which kicked off that sh*tstorm about how everybody forgot that we're supposed to be against protests because of the Rona. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:05:54] - a: Uh.. voting, or concrete policy proposals that actually take a stand and take a chance of pissing off a constituency. I'm not interested in flowery speeches condemning racism or saying Black Lives Matter. I want definitively backing proposals that might lose him police union support or... whatever. -Paul
[2020-06-02 19:05:51] - daniel: nacab ~a
[2020-06-02 18:59:59] - paul: "Not sure how he's changed his tune" i guess for you "tune" only includes voting? ~a
[2020-06-02 18:58:53] - a: Yeah, between games is fine, although I probably often pester people to decide what to do next. Feel free to ignore me. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:58:22] - Daniel: Honestly... I don't put much stock in speeches. Democrats often talk a good game about this and have no follow-through (similar to Republicans and cutting spending). I would be more interested if he came out solidly in favor of concrete things like ending qualified immunity or other things. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:57:37] - def, i can't talk and play. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:57:26] - paul: "while playing". sorry i should have been more clear. i meant between games. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:57:12] - a: So I largely abstain from it, but am fine if others do it. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:56:58] - a: Uh....the ultimate answer is I don't much care if there is off-topic discussion. The only thing I will say is, despite how much I love to discuss and debate politics and other stuff, I largely don't personally like doing it while playing because I find I can't do both things well at once. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:54:57] - ty. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:54:52] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2aWDG87nJo Biden Speech -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:54:22] - daniel: link? ~a
[2020-06-02 18:54:08] - Paul: Biden gave a pretty good speech this morning if you want to see him talk about it. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:51:29] - "in the area" wasn't defined. it might have been the whole city, i dunno. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:50:38] - "I would rather that idle chit-chat be focused on who is scouting / harassing and who is going air." i know you're partly joking, but are you implying you don't like off-topic discussions taking away from sc2 time? i'm trying to clarify, because i do wonder if some people think that sometimes. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:50:36] - a: Oh, wow, that's impressive for the government to be able to do that. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:50:10] - Daniel: How is Biden on the issue? I know he has that crime bill as a skeleton in his closet. Not sure how he's changed his tune. I know Justin Amash has introduced a bill to end qualified immunity and Jo Jorgensen has also tweeted in support of it. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:46:28] - paul: (answering a question you had from signal over here) in addition to the PA systems that were used to announce the curfew, and social media etc, there was also a cell-phone push message to phones that were in the area (probably mid-day, because i didn't get it). ~a
[2020-06-02 18:44:07] - Paul: I don't know. I think to some degree we are already there. I think political change to force reform on them is hopefully the outcome. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:43:59] - a: I would rather that idle chit-chat be focused on who is scouting / harassing and who is going air.
-Paul[2020-06-02 18:43:23] - I agree with Adrian... except for the adults comment. I am sometimes a petulant child. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:42:55] - i think if anything, idle chit-chat is so very infrequent before and after our sc2 games. i would encourage at least a little more! ~a
[2020-06-02 18:42:04] - Or, honestly, I'm fine with all of you talking politics but I'm going to do my best to abstain and focus on my micro.
-Paul[2020-06-02 18:41:30] - daniel: i think we mostly agree on politics, man. everybody here hates trump. and thinks he's a moron. hurtful to the community and the country at large. we're all adults. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:41:27] - Daniel: I'm all for that. I love talking about politics and other things but when I play SC2 I really have a hard time concentrating on playing if I talk about anything else. So if you are not on my team, start talking trash about libertarians or something and my game will fall apart. -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:40:53] - daniel: awww, really? why? ~a
[2020-06-02 18:40:32] - Daniel: If most people start thinking like you do, though, won't that prevent most good people from trying to become cops? What then? To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong to think that way or anything or that I disagree. I'm just wondering about what kind of effect that kind of mindset might have on the future. -paul
[2020-06-02 18:40:32] - We going to have a no politics rule for sc2 tonight? Otherwise it might degrade our playing
-Daniel[2020-06-02 18:38:53] - Maybe its just anger at the current situation but it wouldn't make me very proud right now. /shrug Maybe in 15 years things will change and I will feel different. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:35:31] - Paul: It feels less and less honorable. The whole protect and serve thing seems to have fallen by the wayside. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:28:28] - Daniel: Why wouldn't you want your son to become a police officer when he grows up? Are you worried that doing so would cause him to become a bad person? Or is being a police officer inherently just a bad profession that people shouldn't aspire to be? -Paul
[2020-06-02 18:25:03] - daniel: yeah uh, no response. ask paul or miguel. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:24:29] - a: Like all those cops at the church in DC yesterday - why don't any of them go "this is fucked, why are we doing this?" when someone says go shoot those people with tear gas? -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:23:14] - i'm glad you didn't. but yeah, very high chance he'll change his mind at least a dozen times in the next 15-19 years. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:22:27] - My son yesterday was talking about wanting to be a police officer when he grows up (he's 3 and has no clue of anything going on). I didn't say anything but it crossed my mind to try and dissuade him. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:22:05] - oh i definitely do. like i bumped into a bunch of cops yesterday. most of them were normal people doing normal shit. i did as they asked. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:21:35] - I guess its not ACAB but I no longer start with a presumption that a cop is good. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:21:06] - ok, well at least we're back off the ledge. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:20:45] - a: Thats true - they haven't done the wrong thing yet but I do have super little faith in them to do the right thing. I think that is different than ACAB but is definitely true for me. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:19:43] - i'm not going to "future crime" a bunch of people who have done no wrong. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:19:15] - but even if the answer is "i don't know" that doesn't mean ALL of them that have done nothing wrong YET, are bastards. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:18:03] - yes. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:17:59] - a: do you? -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:17:46] - a: I don't have faith that if a fairfax officer pulled a George Floyd that the other Fairfax officers first goal would be to arrest them. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:17:28] - i still even disagree with that. the not bad ones in like "normal" jurisdictions where black people aren't being murdered on the regular, have no shit they need to get together. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:16:37] - All is a lot. Its not all. But the not bad ones need to get their shit together. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:16:25] - daniel: "they seem pretty craven" ALL of them though? like in every juristiction you believe they're being pretty craven? you think 100% of fairfax county cops are bastards? please tell me you don't believe this. i mean . . . you wouldn't espouse it as truth, but the second half of your message sounds like you do totally espouse it as truth. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:14:44] - I don't think I would espouse it as truth but I think it gets daily harder to argue against with the shit going on. Its fucked up. I don't think they are all individually bad but they seem pretty craven when it comes to dealing with the rotten shit. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:13:58] - how would we even move forward from that? ~a
[2020-06-02 18:13:34] - right. but that's not the point. the point isn't "all cops who don't do something about the bad ones" it's "all cops". that's divisive as shit and unhelpful. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:12:57] - I mean if they don't do something about the bad ones.... -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:12:15] - daniel: but "all"? come on man. don't be crazy. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:11:39] - I think the more and more they don't stand up to the bad cops it gets harder and harder to argue against. I think that if a cop does 99 great things and then watches as another cop murders someone then that isn't a good cop. I think instutionally certainly police forces seem to have some pretty fucked priorities currently. -Daniel
[2020-06-02 18:10:17] - bastards. ~a
[2020-06-02 18:10:06] - acab = all cops are bad? -Daniel
[2020-06-02 17:57:56] - paul: imo it's some divisive bullshit. if it were true, how would we even move forward from that? ~a
[2020-06-02 17:56:10] - a: I've seen it on instagram feeds (stories?) of people I know. No idea how prevalent it is, but I have to imagine it's not completely fringe considering where I am seeing it (people who I wouldn't necessarily consider to be radical troublemakers). -Paul
[2020-06-02 17:51:30] - paul: i didn't see that written anywhere. saw fuck trump, FDT, FTP, and F12 written a lot. kinda disappointing, but on the other hand, i saw tons of applause and positive police messages as well. in the end though, they tear gassed a bunch of people peacefully protesting. https://i.redd.it/o0xyett3ih251.jpg (isn't will mcavoy a fictional character?) ~a
[2020-06-02 17:37:07] - Wondering what people here think about ACAB (presumably in reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C.A.B.). -Paul
[2020-06-02 17:33:24] - ahead of trump bible photo op, police forcibly expel priest from church. ~a
[2020-06-02 15:51:03] - meh, ok, fair enough. i'll settle for "right". ~a
[2020-06-02 15:50:29] - a: Because while you say they weren't breaking any laws, I'm guessing they can make up something. Did the protesters have a permit? -Paul
[2020-06-02 15:49:16] - a: Legal? *Shrug* Probably. The government doesn't tend to care much about restricting its power to do things. To me, the question is less about if it is legal and more about if it is right. And no, I don't think it's right. -Paul
[2020-06-02 15:19:41] - they were peaceful, paul. the owner of the church is furious, the mayor of the city where the church sits, says "shameful". i'm asking if it's legal. is it legal to assault people who aren't breaking any laws? ~a
[2020-06-02 15:17:47] - paul: no. gassing citizens for a photo op. is it legal to assault citizens for a photo op? ~a
[2020-06-02 15:15:51] - a: The curfew? -Paul
[2020-06-02 14:27:20] - daniel: yes i was there when he went to the church. it was some fucking bullshit. i'll admit i was at a safe distance for most of it, because we're in a pandemic. either way, i did see a large group of peaceful people get gassed and assaulted for (what i now know was) a fucking photo op. https://twitter.com/MurielBowser/status/1267617085913522177 was this legal? ~a
[2020-06-02 13:40:06] - a: Were you there when he went to the church? I think you made it home safely if you are posting those things? Hope so! -Daniel
[2020-06-02 04:52:49] - but he got his photo op, in front of a christian church. holding a christian bible. like 0 seconds after gassing a bunch of people. fuck america. ~a
[2020-06-02 04:49:13] - this is some shit. ~a
[2020-06-02 04:48:49] - all for a fucking photo op! like wtf. so insanely dumb. seriously, lots of peaceful people were beat up for a fucking photo op. i'm speechless. ~a
[2020-06-02 00:36:07] - mig: i don't condone violence or looting. full stop. that being said, 100% of the violence i've seen with my own eyes has been police officers firing on peaceful protesters. something about how the president wanted a photo op with a bible (not his bible, but a bible) in front of a church. who the fuck gave that the greenlight i wonder. ~a
[2020-06-01 23:48:51] - accordingly to the washington post, trump was out after curfew tonight, so we have that in common. ~a
[2020-06-01 23:37:34] - a: I'm not sure I can answer your question without breaking my vow to not have the last word.
-Paul[2020-06-01 21:30:10] - I don't particular care what the estimated # is, All I know it's significant enough that excuse making and condonement of it is maddening. - mig
[2020-06-01 21:29:07] - "terrorist" is at this point a loaded term. - mig
[2020-06-01 21:27:13] - daniel: if someone who is looting is claiming they want political change my response is "I don't believe you". - mig
[2020-06-01 21:17:32] - that was pretty difficult to listen to. Not nearly as cringe as some rants, but trying to get to any salient points was difficult, as it usually is. - mig
[2020-06-01 21:14:51] - link13, link14, link15, link16, etc? ~a
[2020-06-01 21:13:47] - link10, link11, link12 ~a
[2020-06-01 21:12:54] - link7, link8, link9 ~a
[2020-06-01 21:11:53] - link4, link5, link6 ~a
[2020-06-01 21:11:11] - what is with the police attacking or arresting the press? link1, link2, link3 ~a
[2020-06-01 20:57:14] - -Daniel
[2020-06-01 20:57:12] - a: good luck!
[2020-06-01 20:55:04] - i might head into dc today (before the curfew, with a mask). wish me luck. ~a
[2020-06-01 20:53:06] - daniel: i might disagree with you on one of your points. i saw plenty of videos of rioters looking for political change (in dc and mn). i'm not sure if i could tell you the difference between a domestic terrorist and a (very) violent protestor. maybe intent to kill? hard to say. ~a
[2020-06-01 20:51:39] - yay. now you work on paul and miguel. ~a
[2020-06-01 20:51:25] - a: Yes I can agree its less than 10.
-Daniel[2020-06-01 20:48:23] - daniel: i was looking for agreement. in my head, i was trying to think . . . 1% or 5%? then i was like, fuck it, we can all agree it's less than 10%. ~a
[2020-06-01 20:47:44] - a: I'd probably start at 0. If we argue over the definition maybe I'd land at a non zero number. I don't think looters are worried about political change. Those that do want political change I don't think are looting. Though perhaps there is an overlap somewhere but I'm still not sure that looting is done as a means to a politcal end. Looting is criminal for sure but not a terrorist. -Daniel
[2020-06-01 20:46:23] - lets also agree he is such a shitty public speaker. jesus christ, he's got the worst stream of consciousness speaking style i've ever seen. how does *anyone* hear this rant and not snicker and roll their eyes? ~a
[2020-06-01 20:42:58] - mig/paul/daniel: (from daniel's link) can we all agree "these people are terrorists" is a bit of a broad brush? no more than (say) 10% of these protesters are "terrorists". agreed? ~a
[2020-06-01 20:39:58] - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/us/politics/trump-governors.html NYT I think has a paywall. I'm not sure if there is another place or if its on youtube somewhere. -Daniel
[2020-06-01 20:37:41] - I wonder if the reason AXXN was up big today is because of all that happened over the weekend. (https://www.axon.com/) -Paul
[2020-06-01 20:33:19] - daniel: link? ~a
[2020-06-01 20:32:58] - The audio of Trump talking to the gov's today is interesting to listen to. Worth listening to somewhat to get a 1st person view of how he feels about all this. -Daniel
[2020-06-01 20:27:07] - a: Trying to be non-lethal is a fine sentiment. "Try to shoot them in the leg" is where we get to incredibly irresponsible. - mig
[2020-06-01 20:22:46] - mig: that might depend on context. was this in the context of protests? in the case of protests, i think non-fatal weapons are pretty common. i think we have rubber bullets, batons, riot gear, pepper spray, tear gas, etc. aren't many cops taught to use non-fatal weapons in protests, especially outside the united states? ~a
[2020-06-01 20:17:04] - https://twitter.com/BoKnowsNews/status/1267510200359104517 I'm all for police killing less people but holy fuckballs this is irresponsible advice. - mig
[2020-06-01 17:32:50] - daniel: I’ll agree. Pretty sound from beginning to end. - mig
[2020-06-01 16:22:04] - https://medium.com/@BarackObama/how-to-make-this-moment-the-turning-point-for-real-change-9fa209806067 Obama's response if you didn't see it. I think the message is good in there. -Daniel
[2020-06-01 15:22:47] - https://i.redd.it/xnzdhe0ow9251.jpg https://i.redd.it/chhym0u0t9251.jpg https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1162002141172633600 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/544596135974039552 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/537160060682924032
[2020-06-01 15:00:24] - mig: we probably shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. i think we should wait until the charge turns into a conviction before we declare things are moving in a positive direction? ~a
[2020-06-01 14:30:46] - "So apparently that isn't actually happening." You know the officer who kneeled on Floyd has been and charged with murder, right? Progress has been unfortunately incremental and slow, but since ferguson it's at least been moving in a positive direction. - mig
[2020-06-01 13:23:08] - (fixed the link. it's probably my fault it wasn't being linked.) ~a
[2020-06-01 13:22:45] - The mlk bit in here should be the last word if we are going to try and move on. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natiÂon/2020/05/29/minneapolis-protest-martinÂ-luther-king-quote-riot-george-floyd/5282486002/ -Daniel
[2020-05-31 21:19:39] - Paul: "for over a decade" vs "we need structural reform in police departments and how they handle confrontations". So apparently that isn't actually happening. I don't think violence is good but at some point when the police continue to perpetuate violence again and again I do understand unbridled anger. -Daniel
[2020-05-31 21:10:19] - paul: you had your last word, but you forgot to bring up violent acts by the police to non-violent protests. ~a
[2020-05-31 20:38:12] - paul: when the looting starts, the shooting starts. ~a
[2020-05-31 20:16:39] - Daniel: But I suspect we won't get anywhere with this and I'll probably just eventually make you mad enough to not want to play Starcraft with me anymore, so I'll cede the floor to you and let you have the last word. -Paul
[2020-05-31 20:15:44] - Daniel: But it is bananas to me (to use your term) that you don't seem to think all of this violence and rioting and looting isn't bad behavior that should be condemned and is counterproductive and stupid. I can't think of an cause that justifies the random acts of destruction that we have seen. -Paul
[2020-05-31 20:12:43] - Daniel: Yes, Floyd's death was awful. I have been following these kinds of stories for over a decade and I know all about Tamir Rice and Eric Garner and Philando Castille. I believe very strongly that we need structural reform in police departments and how they handle confrontations. -Paul
[2020-05-31 20:09:38] - Daniel: I think our disagreement is on if the righteousness of the cause justifies the reaction. You saying, "But I definitely understand it and don't feel mad about it." and the fact that you keep coming back to the instigating event seems to indicate to me that you think it does. -Paul
[2020-05-31 20:05:37] - Daniel: Again, two things can be true: You can be against the police killing people AND rioting and looting. What the hell does looting a Target have to do with protest police violence? Nothing, as far as I can tell. -Paul
[2020-05-31 19:50:14] - I don't think excuse is the right word. I don't think I would say that breaking windows is right or good or whatever other violence is right or good. But I definitely understand it and don't feel mad about it. Should watch Killer Mike (I know) video talking to Atlanta the other night. -Daniel
[2020-05-31 19:29:44] - Paul: Do you not understand that police just keep killing people? Wouldn't that make you mad? This is so bananas your lack of empthay with people who ARE DYING vs people who wanted businesses to open up faster and not have masks and social distancing requirements. ONE OF THOSE IS PEOPLE DYING again just to be clear. -Daniel
[2020-05-31 19:29:42] - Daniel: The righteousness of the cause plays a role, sure, but that doesn't excuse rioting and looting and violence. Maybe it's a minority of protesters and the majority are peaceful but I think it's undeniable that there's been a lot more unrest with these protests than with the others. -Paul
[2020-05-31 19:27:11] - Daniel: "Honestly the fact that we are even comparing these two is mind blowing for me." I agree, but probably in the opposite way. I'll be blunt, I find it mind-boggling the degree of sympathy these protests are getting considering the violence and rioting and looting associated with them and especially compared to the mockery that the (largely non-violent?) previous protests. -Paul
[2020-05-31 19:22:18] - Paul: I don't think they are dumb because I disagree with them just to be clear. There are definitely people and things I disagree with that I don't think are dumb. The original corona protests however fall into both things I don't agree with and things I think are dumb. -Daniel
[2020-05-31 19:20:00] - I truly think you need some introspection if you can't understand why this protest isn't completely different than the other. -Daniel
[2020-05-31 19:19:28] - Paul: No, totally. I think the corona protests were pretty dumb and mostly I think the people participating in them seemed dumb. These protests make complete sense to me so yeah I would and probably will continue to mock the first group while not mocking the second. Honestly the fact that we are even comparing these two is mind blowing for me. -Daniel
[2020-05-31 18:58:37] - a: Or maybe not only, but largely. -Paul
[2020-05-31 18:58:29] - a: And I think you're only saying that because you agree with one group and disagree with the other. -Paul
[2020-05-31 18:57:50] - Daniel: "some indignation(?) about how the first protest was treated opposed to the second" It's not the phrasing I would use, but sure, that basically gets to the heart of it. These protests are getting a lot of sympathy and benefit of the doubt (from the media and from people I know) versus the previous protest which pretty unilaterally provoked mockery. I think that's disappointing. -Paul
[2020-05-31 18:50:56] - daniel: https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1266924387795709954 I'll say this is encouraging at least. - mig
[2020-05-31 04:10:09] - paul: whether they're spreading the virus or not (they both are) matters less than what they're protesting. ~a
[2020-05-31 00:02:41] - Paul: I think my answer has two parts - A) the people in the pictures I've seen have masks on so on that front I guess they are better? B) Why is it important? I feel like the question is missing the point or is going in some weird direction that I don't understand. I guess to me the question implies some indignation(?) about how the first protest was treated opposed to the second which seems bananas to me. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 21:07:25] - Heh, whoops. -Paul-Paul
[2020-05-30 21:07:12] - Daniel: I guess let me ask you this: Do you think the protests happening now are more responsible in terms of not spreading Coronavirus than the previous protests? I guess they're a few weeks later but I'm not sure that means it's safe to gather in large groups again. -Paul-Paul
[2020-05-30 21:05:27] - Daniel: "One of the protests was because of Corona while also ignoring the ramifications of the protest." I'm not sure I get this? One protest was against the government mandated lockdowns due to Coronavirus, yes. But how was that protest ignoring the ramifications anymore than these are? -Paul
[2020-05-30 21:02:14] - Daniel: Two things can be true: That you can be against police killing people AND be against rioting and looting. -Paul
[2020-05-30 20:29:44] - Sorry I lost it for a sec there. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 20:29:39] - mig: Celebrating violence is dumb. But its certainly understandable for me. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 20:26:50] - daniel: I'm cranky because I'm seeing on my feed, lots of people (not anyone here) not just condoning, but kind of celebrating people getting their livelihoods fucked over and thinking they're making a big brained take quoting MLK while they do it. - mig
[2020-05-30 20:24:29] - daniel: I don't think anyone is pro-police brutality here either. - mig
[2020-05-30 20:20:51] - I don't think anyone on the board is pro riot - but comparing protests to the last set with whataboutism reeks of supporting all the problems that led to the protests in the first place. Which is just crazy to me. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 20:16:20] - So its very easy for me to understand losing it a bit for those that are actually dying. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 20:15:55] - I'm trying to stay logical here but its hard. This isn't one time, its not in isolation, its not a random thing. IT JUST KEEPS HAPPENING. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 20:15:29] - We've been through this before so I don't know if it goes anywhere but like seriously guys. If you can see the pictures of George Floyd or watch those videos and not get PISSED THE FUCK OFF THEN WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU. I get not condoning riots but what the fuck guys. Police are fucking killing people who are asking them not to as they lay on the ground. SHIT. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 20:13:49] - Paul: Nothing is being said about corona because the entire point of the protests is to draw attention to a different (bigger?) issue where the police just keep killing people. The other protest was all about corona. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 20:11:36] - Paul: One of the protests was because of Corona while also ignoring the ramifications of the protest. If you don't think that is dumb then I don't understand. One is about police murdering people (AGAIN) and happens despite corona. If I singularly were the media I would treat the former with much more disdain than the later and its not even close in my head. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 18:49:36] - a: I'm inclined to agree. Overall, we're still experiencing some restrictions, but the government is being very lax in enforcement. I think the biggest points in my favor are that schools are remaining closed and most elective surgeries still aren't happening. But most action is being sparked by private interests, not government. -- Xpovos
[2020-05-30 18:26:02] - Daniel: And the other seems to be garnering a lot of sympathy and a lot of excuses are being made for the violent and illegal behavior and nothing is being said about the danger of spreading Coronavirus. -Paul
[2020-05-30 18:25:03] - Daniel: I guess my point is that, regardless of what you or I think, if the media was being objective they should treat both protests similarly in that respect, but they're not. One was generally looked down upon and mocked while being called dangerous for possibly spreading Coronavirus... -Paul
[2020-05-30 18:23:34] - Daniel: Right, but does the cause matter? Coronavirus doesn't matter if you're protesting for a "Democratic" cause or a "Republican" cause, it'll infect you either way. -Paul
[2020-05-30 18:22:38] - Daniel: And I think this probably gets to the heart of where we might disagree. I actually think there's a huge difference between a bunch of people protesting while legally possessing weapons vs a bunch of people rioting and looting and doing other illegal stuff. -Paul
[2020-05-30 18:18:41] - Daniel: I do think it's important distinction, though, because I was about to write: "I think there's a very big and important difference between people merely possessing guns (which is probably largely legal) vs rioting and looting (which is largely not)". -Paul
[2020-05-30 17:19:22] - Paul: Also one protest was about the corona virus / response which makes the whole gathering for it more dumb (imo) and the other is about police murdering people (again) which means despite corona people are angry enoug to protest. You did reference the apples to oranges here but I really hope you guys understand the differences between these protests. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 17:18:12] - Paul: I will cede that I probably used "machine gun" in a technically incorrect fashion. I still think the point stands. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 17:08:43] - I know it's a bit of apples to oranges in a lot of ways, but I still think it's pretty telling the difference in how the media is covering these protests versus previous ones. -Paul
[2020-05-30 17:06:54] - It's also a little interesting how I haven't heard a single media personality tut-tutting about how ill advised protesting is in terms of Coronavirus spread for this particular protest. -Paul
[2020-05-30 17:05:47] - Daniel: Was it actual machine guns? I believe those are typically pretty illegal. -Paul
[2020-05-30 16:58:41] - And just for clarity, I am talking about people praising/excusing the violence specifically, not the protests. - mig
[2020-05-30 16:58:36] - mig: Agreed. In that link that has the MLK quotes he says both (riots & systemic conditions) should be condemned equally. I think just focusing on the wrongness of the riots misses some of the point though. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 16:55:23] - daniel: I can understand where its coming from, but I can also call it wrong. There aren't mutually exclusive. - mig
[2020-05-30 16:25:28] - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/29/minneapolis-protest-martin-luther-king-quote-riot-george-floyd/5282486002/ -Daniel
[2020-05-30 16:25:17] - I'm not pro riot but if you guys can't understand where this is coming from thats pretty crazy to me. -Daniel
[2020-05-30 16:24:55] - mig: I mean one protest did have machine guns in a state capital. That seems fairly dangerous to me. One side is arguing that they shouldn't have to wear masks and one side is pissed because police just murdered someone (again) on tape. -Daniel
prev <-> next