here are old message board entries


prev <-> next

[2001-06-19 14:12:00] - mig: the point being that just because the govt made alcohol illegal for young people does not mean parents will stop talking to them about it -dave

[2001-06-19 14:11:00] - Hi, how are you guys doing? - Lauren

[2001-06-19 14:11:00] - mig: and about the parent thing, all the govt can do is encourage the parents to talk about it to their kids. they can't make the parents talk about it. -dave

[2001-06-19 14:10:00] - how many of you recycle? http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=212

[2001-06-19 14:10:00] - mig: true, although the number of drunk driving incidents is not solely determined by alcohol laws -dave

[2001-06-19 14:08:00] - i suppose if it the number of drunk driving accidents had decreased from then until today, you might have a case, but that didn't happen. - mig

[2001-06-19 14:07:00] - dave:  how does restricting the purchase of alcohol reduce drunk driving accidents?  all it does is infringe upon freedoms. - mig

[2001-06-19 14:04:00] - parents are encouraged to talk to their kids about it, but do they? - mig

[2001-06-19 14:03:00] - logan: well they already have very stiff punishments for drunk drivers. i think they were looking for additional things they could do to reduce the number of incidents -dave

[2001-06-19 14:03:00] - dave:  let's say you're a parent.  would you be more worried about what your kid does and would you be more committed to explain to your kid the harmful side-affects of alcohol if it were legal for him to buy it? - mig

[2001-06-19 14:02:00] - drugs are illegal and it's probably one of the highest profile things that parents are encouraged to talk to their kids about -dave

[2001-06-19 14:02:00] - Why should they crack down on the purchase of alcohol, when instead they should be focusing on the actual crime, the drunk driving (if age limits were removed)? -logan

[2001-06-19 14:02:00] - and i'm not sure how much difference the law would actually make in either encouraging or discouraging parents to talk to their kids about it -dave

[2001-06-19 14:00:00] - mig: i agree that kids are always going to be able to get the alcohol, but at least police can crack down on it if they see it being a problem. if it was legal, they couldn't even do that -dave

[2001-06-19 13:59:00] - mig: what exactly did the zero-tolerance thing do? -dave

[2001-06-19 13:52:00] - sorry for the confusion.  i just meant laws like the "zero-tolerance" thing that bush signed. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:49:00] - whoops i didn't mean drunk driving law.  i meant just any alcohol related law. -mig

[2001-06-19 13:48:00] - will make sure my kid doesn't get any alcohol). - mig

[2001-06-19 13:48:00] - the big flaw in all these alcohol age laws(or any other age-restricted thing) is that kids are going to be able to get them anyway, so the law is pretty useless, and at the same time, discourages parent involvement(oh i don't have to worry, the gov't

[2001-06-19 13:47:00] - mig: give me an example of a drunk driving law -dave

[2001-06-19 13:44:00] - in a way, i think drunk driving laws encourage kids to drink. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:41:00] - mig: it's not that i disagree with you. i'm just curious as to how you arrive at that conclusion -dave

[2001-06-19 13:40:00] - yes i do, because i believe that the rise in drunk driving accidents are a direct cause of those laws. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:40:00] - mig: the northern va comment was in response to racism problems being solved -dave

[2001-06-19 13:39:00] - mig: maybe we see it that way because we live in northern virginia -dave

[2001-06-19 13:38:00] - mig: i mean, maybe we just got a bad batch of kids this time around :-) -dave

[2001-06-19 13:38:00] - the naacp has done some great things in terms of civil rights, but they've more or less solved most of the problems of racism in our country today. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:37:00] - mig: but can you actually say that drunk driving accidents would have gone down if they hadn't pressed for those laws? -dave

[2001-06-19 13:37:00] - examples - the confederate flag, anyone who opposes affirmitive action, election fiasco 2000. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:37:00] - naacp:  they tend to see racism where it doesn't exist. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:34:00] - madd:  they pressed for all these laws that supposadly protected minors from alcohol.  - mig

[2001-06-19 13:33:00] - madd:  that's simple.  look how many drunk driving related deaths/accidents there are today. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:33:00] - jdb and dave: I really can't explain my gripes with NOW and MADD and the NAACP without going into a bit of detail and I don't have the time to do it now (work to do) so ask me about it later ;-) -paul

[2001-06-19 13:32:00] - http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=211 - mig

[2001-06-19 13:30:00] - mig: how do you think they are being counter-productive to their goals? -dave

[2001-06-19 13:24:00] - dave:  they're free to do whatever, we just think they're way of doing things is counter-productive to their goals. - mig

[2001-06-19 13:10:00] - i didn't break 100 pounds until high school! http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA010618Obese_child.html -jdb

[2001-06-19 13:09:00] - paul: or are you saying that you think they are actually hurting their respective causes by wasting their energy on something inconsequential? -dave

[2001-06-19 13:08:00] - and if they aren't funded by the govt, then i don't see what's wrong with them pursuing whatever issue they wanted to -dave

[2001-06-19 13:07:00] - none of those groups are funded by the govt are they? -dave

[2001-06-19 13:05:00] - paul: they are fighting the wrong battles? which battles should they be fighting? -dave

[2001-06-19 12:56:00] - hehe... everytime someone says "ruckus," i think of the ruckus society: http://www.ruckus.org/ -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:52:00] - http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=209

[2001-06-19 12:48:00] - the ruckus in florida in nov. is one example. - mig

[2001-06-19 12:46:00] - mig: there is a long history of reparations. -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:46:00] - Sorry guys, my boss just came in and told me I have work to do :-( You'll have to carry on this discussion without me -paul

[2001-06-19 12:45:00] - though that is more specifically payment to countries in africa. - mig

[2001-06-19 12:45:00] - paul: ah, ok. so they just need to exit the building gracefully... -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:44:00] - mig: why do you think the naacp is about retribution? examples, examples, examples. -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:44:00] - paul:  not really.  the un is considering having other countries pay reparations as well. - mig

[2001-06-19 12:44:00] - jdb: Except that's not really right either.... because they haven't achieved their goals... I guess what I am trying to say is that they are organizations that are fighting the wrong battles in my opinion -paul

[2001-06-19 12:44:00] - i know very little about madd. could someone send me to a link of some recent "bad" actions? -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:44:00] - Realistically, I think a drinking age is harmful and unnecessary. -logan

[2001-06-19 12:43:00] - well on madd, they kind of had 2 goals.  to make people aware that drunk driving is bad, and then to stop it.  i guess they succeeded on the former, but have failed miserably on the latter. - mig

[2001-06-19 12:43:00] - paul: ideally, i don't think a drinking age is necessary. -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:43:00] - mig: It's not every non-black person.... it's basically every tax paying American that would end up paying reparations. -paul

[2001-06-19 12:41:00] - jdb: Well, my comment wasn't well put... but that is kind of what I meant to say. The point I was trying to make is that I believe NOW and the NAACP (and to a certain extent, MADD) has already achieved their goals -paul

[2001-06-19 12:41:00] - naacp thinks that every non-black person in this country owes every black person in the country money because of something that happeened 150 years ago.  seems like an outdated viewpoint to me. - mig

[2001-06-19 12:40:00] - MADD is about doing "something" about a problem... with little thought to the consequences of their actions. -logan

[2001-06-19 12:39:00] - jdb: Why do you think drinking laws in regards to age are generally silly? Do you think they should be based on something else or we shouldn't have them at all? -paul

[2001-06-19 12:39:00] - paul: are you saying (in regards to the naacp/now/madd comment) that those organizations are based upon delusional and/or outdated views of the world? -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:35:00] - paul: i'm really not sure. in general, i think many drinking laws (in regards to age) are silly, but then again, i realize that it wouldn't exactly be easy to make drastic reforms to thoes laws without initially bad side effects. -jdb

[2001-06-19 12:34:00] - mig: Same reason we still have the NAACP and NOW... -paul

[2001-06-19 12:30:00] - geez, madd is so militant.  i wonder why they haven't realized yet that there really isn't anyone that supports drunk driving. - mig

[2001-06-19 12:22:00] - jdb: What do you think about Texas's underage drinking laws? -paul

[2001-06-19 12:21:00] - damn microsoft word and it's fucking autoformatting garbage! - mig

[2001-06-19 12:01:00] - <sacrasm>ah our laws to "protect" minors.  what a great thing they are indeed.</sarcasm> it amuses me that bush was the one who signed the thing though. - mig

[2001-06-19 11:50:00] - Well, it's off to lunch for me. You guys better have a nice long debate while I'm gone so my bar up top isn't so huge -paul

[2001-06-19 11:50:00] - http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/06/02/bush/index.html -jdb

[2001-06-19 11:49:00] - dewey: Well, she put a period between the two so they are seperate sentences... ;-) -paul

[2001-06-19 11:46:00] - paul: Oh, I see. two ideas in one sentance!  craziness! :-p - dewey

[2001-06-19 11:38:00] - dewey: I think she was talking about installing Linux -paul

[2001-06-19 11:35:00] - if you're running win98, you can probably play around with the registry to disable some of the "protection". - mig

[2001-06-19 11:35:00] - aba: well if you can't, we should reschedule. - dewey

[2001-06-19 11:34:00] - workworkwork.  chat later.  bya.  -  aba

[2001-06-19 11:33:00] - adrian and paul at least i think.  and i cant.  :(  this is a sucky place to work if you want good control of your computer.  -  aba

[2001-06-19 11:32:00] - aba:  I'll be there tongiht, anyone else? - dewey

[2001-06-19 11:32:00] - Install Linux. :P -logan

[2001-06-19 11:25:00] - gah, i just found out that they disable all kinds of stuff here, so i cant change any of the advanced options for ie.  friendly error messages!  this sucks big time!  and i cant even install netscape or anything else for that matter.  :'(  -  aba

[2001-06-19 11:24:00] - gv is great and light-weight, especially if you are familiar with ghostview (which can also do pdfs -- gv is basically a better ghostview). -logan

[2001-06-19 11:23:00] - ah.  found it.  thanks a bunch. - mig

[2001-06-19 11:21:00] - gv, acroread for the rare cases when gv fails. -logan

[2001-06-19 11:20:00] - anyone know a good pdf viewer for linux? - mig

[2001-06-19 11:18:00] - http://mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=708&FS=Belly+of+the+Beast -logan

[2001-06-19 11:03:00] - As if state control of the power industry is ok, because private companies can still produce movies. -logan

[2001-06-19 11:03:00] - Heh, I like how that article basically tries to say that socialism is good because capitalism occurs anyway, regardless of the presence of socialist restrictions. -logan

[2001-06-19 11:03:00] - paul: be careful that you don't get tendonitis or carpal tunnel -dave

[2001-06-19 11:01:00] - paul: Note that ignorant socialists make those arguments, while actual economists make well-reasoned arguments to the contrary: http://mises.org/fullarticle.asp?control=704&month=33&title=Language+and+Power&id=33 -logan

[2001-06-19 10:59:00] - http://www.salon.com/news/col/cona/2001/06/19/regulation/index.html >:o This guy makes me so angry! -paul

[2001-06-19 10:58:00] - logan: You'll have to see the movie to find out ;-) -paul

[2001-06-19 10:55:00] - I don't think a brief, movie-style glimpse of her breasts (is there even such a glimpse in the movie?) would be worth $6 and sitting through the actual movie. :P -logan

[2001-06-19 10:53:00] - logan: My wrists still hurt from all the typing I had to do :-( -paul

[2001-06-19 10:51:00] - "Women want to see their fantasies of power, domination and physical superiority acted out for them; men want to see Jolie's breasts" :-) -paul

[2001-06-19 10:50:00] - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15715-2001Jun18.html "the boys don't just watch a woman kick butt, they become that woman, big breasts and all" -paul

[2001-06-19 10:47:00] - paul: You seemed to be doing well enough on your own.  I wasn't keeping track, so I shouldn't have jumped in. -logan

[2001-06-19 10:46:00] - It looks like MapQuest only works for the United States and Europe seperately -paul

[2001-06-19 10:46:00] - To get the distance, take the latitude and longitude of two points, one in the US and one in Russia, and do some math. -logan

[2001-06-19 10:44:00] - Wow... http://www.guerrillanews.com/cocakarma/ -logan

[2001-06-19 10:31:00] - yeah, but at least it will give you the distance, right?  -  aba

[2001-06-19 10:26:00] - Suuuuuuure. Driving directions to russia. - aaron

[2001-06-19 10:07:00] - hehe.  cant you mapquest it?  :)  -  aba

[2001-06-19 09:48:00] - well, if it is around 5000 miles from russia to dc, it would take 18-19 min for the missile to get to us -dave

[2001-06-19 09:34:00] - That is, assuming the average running speed of 12 miles an hour. Still, I would say we're pretty safe - aaron

[2001-06-19 09:33:00] - http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-6294231.html?tag=mn_hd kinda funny. - mig

[2001-06-19 09:32:00] - Darn. Well Forrest Gump ran across the US like 11 times in that movie, and it took him like 6 minutes. so that makes it about... 576 feet wide. So the speed of sound is 576 feet in 3 minutes, or... Roughly 2.2 miles per hour - aaron

[2001-06-19 09:29:00] - aaron: not quite sure, otherwise i'd know how long it took :-) -dave

[2001-06-19 09:27:00] - Well that's 21-22.5 times the speed of sound, and I've been told if you yelled loud enough in Florida, someone in Washington would hear you a full 3 minutes later... How wide is the US? - aaron

[2001-06-19 09:20:00] - at that speed, how long does it take to get from russia to the us? -dave

[2001-06-19 09:11:00] - paul: and you wonder why missile defense isn't easy :-) -dave

[2001-06-19 09:10:00] - hmmm, from my calculations that is mach 20.9 - mach 22.4 that's pretty dang fast. -dave

[2001-06-19 09:10:00] - logan: whether it is bad or not doesn't change the fact that it is used as one.  ~a

[2001-06-19 08:52:00] - what is that in terms of mach? -dave

[2001-06-19 08:51:00] - velocity of a ballistic missile according to putin 4.3 - 4.6 miles per sec -dave

[2001-06-19 08:49:00] - paul: he saw the thrashing you were getting and decided to save himself :-d j/k -dave

[2001-06-19 08:41:00] - interesting article in the post about tech millionaires and what has happened to them with the economic downturn http://washtech.com/news/media/10592-1.html -dave

[2001-06-19 08:39:00] - logan: Where were you when I needed your help about privatization of the USPS and road system? :-) -paul

[2001-06-19 08:33:00] - The current usage of DNS as a search engine is bad.  That causes all the conflict.  Government interference exacerbates it. -logan

[2001-06-19 08:33:00] - And neither are hostnames. -logan

[2001-06-19 06:59:00] - bad analogy.  my message board isn't driving the economy.  ~a

[2001-06-19 01:48:00] - Imagine if the government stepped in and told Adrian what names he could allow people to use on this board. -logan

[2001-06-19 01:45:00] - for once, i agree with you logan. - mig

[2001-06-19 01:39:00] - I don't see why courts have a say in this matter.  Domain name systems should be a private affair.  Look at all the trouble making it a government affair has caused. -logan

[2001-06-19 01:39:00] - jdb: That was pretty good.  Better than ESR's usual political fare. -logan

[2001-06-19 01:33:00] - what's next?  will yahoo be able to sue www.hooya.com because it contains all of the letters in yahoo? - mig

[2001-06-19 01:27:00] - http://slashdot.org/yro/01/06/18/1810205.shtml i don't know about you, but i really think this is getting really fukcing ridiculous. - mig

[2001-06-19 01:17:00] - http://tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/reflections-on-mcveigh.html -jdb

[2001-06-18 23:26:00] - jdb: Yes! We shall have to cover that sometime. I might be busy at work tomorrow but we can try to do it then if you want -paul

[2001-06-18 23:17:00] - evolution tomorrow (tuesday) at arlington-lee highway.  meet around 7:20ish.  -  aba

[2001-06-18 23:12:00] - paul: weren't we supposed to talk about ashcroft sometime? -jdb

[2001-06-18 21:48:00] - jdb: Indeed it does, but I am entirely too lazy to use it :-( -paul

[2001-06-18 21:44:00] - paul: no clue, doesn't your public library have an online search engine? -jdb

[2001-06-18 21:18:00] - jdb: Is that a book that the library would have? -paul

[2001-06-18 21:17:00] - mig: I want to see it. You should try to plan an early showing (before 6:00) for cheaper tickets if possible -paul

[2001-06-18 21:13:00] - so, like who wants to see evolution tomorrow.  and at what time? - mig

[2001-06-18 17:41:00] - mig: Opportunism breeds creativity. As for open source, I was kind of talking about a market-model for the entire market. Like capitalism and socialism etc -paul

[2001-06-18 17:27:00] - as long as you don't actually buy from them, i don't think adrian minds. - mig

[2001-06-18 17:00:00] - paul: check this book out --> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316353000/ (and... yes, adrian... i know that amazon is evil) -jdb

[2001-06-18 17:00:00] - i'm not entirely sure on.  i thought it was xerox at least. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:56:00] - Apple filched the mouse idea from Xerox. I think Microsoft filched the windows idea from Apple. - aaron

[2001-06-18 16:47:00] - my page is back up at mickeyj.dhs.org.  maybe adrian should change the link. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:39:00] - i only agree halfway with paul.  capitalism does fuel creativity somewhat, but i think it fuels opportunistism more. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:31:00] - and we have bell to thank for unix - vinnie

[2001-06-18 16:30:00] - govt and business have both given us technological advancements. god bless the army (and al gore) for the internet :P - vinnie

[2001-06-18 16:25:00] - i think they forgot the biggest one though:  filched the "windows" idea from xerox. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:24:00] - much bigger than i thought it was. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:24:00] - wow.  quite a list. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:21:00] - they were big accomplishments, but based on rather out-dated innovations (of other companies). -jdb

[2001-06-18 16:20:00] - i guess i have to agree that win95 and win98 were pretty big accomplishments.  but they were done really half-assed. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:19:00] - http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/catalog/ <-- unfortunately this website is out of date. -jdb

[2001-06-18 16:17:00] - i think microsoft has done a lot -- but mainly just follow-ups to their own products, not much true innovation. now they certainly have bought a lot of innovations over the years... -jdb

[2001-06-18 16:16:00] - and it has innovated more than microsoft ever could. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:14:00] - it's a market model too ;) -jdb

[2001-06-18 16:14:00] - jdb: I was kind of talking about a market-model, sorry for the confusion -paul

[2001-06-18 16:13:00] - hehe, i wish i got paid to sit on the web and post messages all day :-P

[2001-06-18 16:13:00] - it is a model, paul.  look at redhat.  they actually make money.  - mig

[2001-06-18 16:13:00] - Anyway, I gotta go home now, although I would love to continue this conversation at a later date. Goodbye all! -paul

[2001-06-18 16:12:00] - open source is too a model! -jdb

[2001-06-18 16:11:00] - mig: Open source isn't really a model... and I don't see why the two can't coexist... -paul

[2001-06-18 16:10:00] - dave: I think Dewey made the inference when talking to me (if he was talking to me) -paul

[2001-06-18 16:10:00] - not really.  the open-source model is the best system for innovation and new ideas(at least in the software realm anyway).  capitalism is a terrible business model for the computing industry. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:10:00] - mig: So Dewey was talking to me about that? -paul

[2001-06-18 16:09:00] - i didn't know / assume paul was for open-source. who did? -dave

[2001-06-18 16:09:00] - dewey: I hope you realize that capitalism is probably the best system for innovation and new ideas -paul

[2001-06-18 16:08:00] - but i'm curious, since people automatically seemed to assume paul was pro-open source, when he hasn't really said anything to that affect. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:06:00] - i wouldn't call it innovation.  i suppose they are doing new things, but they aren't necessarily good. - mig

[2001-06-18 16:06:00] - or *cough* recycled ;-) -jdb

[2001-06-18 16:05:00] - mig: Whether you like it or not, though, microsoft is doing new stuff and is innovating. It might be bad innovation or poorly designed, but it's new -paul

[2001-06-18 16:03:00] - dewey: It's anybody's guess. Some people think the depression was caused by the government regulation. Others think FDR made it worse with his spending spree. I don't know myself -paul

[2001-06-18 16:03:00] - paul:  not necessarily the case all the time.  look at microsoft.  i cringe eveytime they use the word "innovate". - mig

[2001-06-18 16:03:00] - businesses are personal entitites while the government is by the people for the people

[2001-06-18 15:59:00] - dewey: What company is strapped for cash? What are you talking about? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:57:00] - dave: Yeah, but the government is pulling that money they are using to fund businesses from the economy, so they really aren't doing anything helpful -paul

[2001-06-18 15:57:00] - just curious, what would have happened if the government hadn't spent money in the depression? - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:56:00] - dewey: I have no idea what point you were trying to make before. Capitalism fuels creativity and invention more so then governments do. That is why the US always had a technological edge on the USSR -paul

[2001-06-18 15:56:00] - paul: they wouldn't get paid a lot though, because it is a company strapped for cash. - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:55:00] - dave: The government funds them because they take their money away in taxes. The businesses would still invent the new things anyway -paul

[2001-06-18 15:55:00] - sbir's are all about creating new useful tech, and that's all sponsored by the govt -dave

[2001-06-18 15:54:00] - dave: I know, NASA is responsible for a few of the items we use but that's such a small amount of stuff comapred to everything else out there -paul

[2001-06-18 15:54:00] - paul: and the govt funds a large number of businesses that come up with new useful tech - so the govt does come up with tech in that way -dave

[2001-06-18 15:53:00] - dewey: What are you talking about? If somebody invented a new mail sorter then they would get paid for it, unless the USPS decides not to use it -paul

[2001-06-18 15:52:00] - paul: the technology that led to the crt was developed during the apollo program - a govt things -dave

[2001-06-18 15:52:00] - dewey: The thing that really makes me sad is that everybody seems to have this idea that business are only bad influences and we need government to make our lives better. Why does everybody have that mentality? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:52:00] - aren't monopolies the result of capitalism?  the best being the richest? - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:51:00] - why shouldn't someone invent an improved mailing sorter for the usps?  because he won't get money for it.  this wonderful culture you are advocating is producing selfish so-called-citizens who only do things for the bucks. - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:50:00] - dewey: Who are you talking about being for open-source and for capitalism? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:49:00] - dewey: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23001 Check out that article -paul

[2001-06-18 15:49:00] - I find it amusing how you can be for open-source and for capitalism... - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:49:00] - dewey: Inventing electricity? :-) Actually, Harry Browne did an excellent article about that. Private businesses are the ones that invent all the stuff that makes life better, not the government -paul

[2001-06-18 15:48:00] - the cure for cancer, the mapping of the human genome.  it is now a race for patents instead of a race for a cure. - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:47:00] - dewey: I still believe we need a limited form of government but I think we need a much smaller one then you think we need -paul

[2001-06-18 15:47:00] - I'm concerned about this whole privitization and capitalist thing.  it causes people to do everything to beter themselves and make money.  whatever happened to inventing something to better life?  like electricity and phones. - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:47:00] - aba: Ok then, will do. Thanks -paul

[2001-06-18 15:46:00] - mig: Agreed, I'm not saying that all the freedoms that government steals from us are freedoms that we should have. -paul

[2001-06-18 15:45:00] - isn't there some saying about rubber and road? :-d -dave

[2001-06-18 15:45:00] - WHICHEVER YOU WANT.  I HAVE TO GO BACK TO WORK NOW, BUT ILL CHECK BACK IN LATER TONIGHT WHEN I GET HOME.  -  ABA

[2001-06-18 15:43:00] - well paul, you certainly don't have the freedom to kill someone. - mig

[2001-06-18 15:43:00] - paul: without government, my freedom of life might be hard to maintain. - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:43:00] - you'd think with paul being an idealist and working for the govt, he'd try to be very productive to give us what we're paying taxes for :-d -dave

[2001-06-18 15:43:00] - yeah, not quite -- but much more private than most gov't agencies. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:42:00] - jbd:  the usps isn't exactly a private buisness though. - mig

[2001-06-18 15:41:00] - aba: Do I post to the event about evolution opening or create a new event for tomorrow? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:40:00] - jdb: Ok, I can see what you are saying then. So the government evens the playing field by setting the rules as to what freedoms we have and don't have? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:39:00] - government as solidifier, very much so. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:38:00] - jdb: So what you are saying is that the government solidifies what freedoms we have and don't have, while lack of a government kind of throws them up in the air, leaving things to chance? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:37:00] - (threaded discussion lists would be real useful just about now...) -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:36:00] - jdb: What? I am saying that the existence of a government is primarily to take away certain freedoms for the greater "good" of society -paul

[2001-06-18 15:35:00] - paul: i wouldn't disagree with that comment other than the guarantee of freedoms. the government guarantees freedoms, without a government more freedoms might exist, but your acquisition and preservation of them is a whole other story indeed. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:34:00] - jdb: There are hundreds of companies out there whose purpose is "just to make money" but they produce wonderful products. The vast majority of the items we take for granted today weren't invented by government, but by private businesses -paul

[2001-06-18 15:34:00] - ANYONE WANT TO GO SEE EVOLUTION TOMORROW?  POST SOMETHING TO APARNA.DHS.ORG  -  ABA

[2001-06-18 15:34:00] - paul: so... what do you mean? that by having certain freedoms restricted, that negates the fact that your country is preserving other freedoms? -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:33:00] - jdb: I violently disagree. Without a government, we would have a lot more freedoms then with a government -paul

[2001-06-18 15:32:00] - paul: nm, 'im ceasing to keep track of this conversation, hehe, too fast. -dave

[2001-06-18 15:32:00] - jdb: It doesn't matter if a company's higher goal is making money or inventing a longer lasting lightbulb, what matters in this case is the result -paul

[2001-06-18 15:31:00] - paul: i would say the government is all about protecting your freedoms. sometimes, to protect your freedom, you have to restrict other freedoms. it's a sacrifice that i, as a citizen am willing to make. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:31:00] - dave: "better"? Which statement of mine are you referring to? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:30:00] - mig: and i would argue that the usps is about [a little bit] more than making money. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:29:00] - jdb: True, and government's are all about stealing freedom from it's people. That doesn't mean that private businesses and governments can accomplish other things -paul

[2001-06-18 15:29:00] - paul: plenty of people in this country have to travel great distances to receive medical treatment, purchase food, etc. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:29:00] - jbd:  that's kind of the point.  all businesses are out to purely make money.  making customers happy or unhappy is merely a by-product of their making money. - mig

[2001-06-18 15:28:00] - paul: what do you mean by better? more reliable or cost less? or both? -dave

[2001-06-18 15:28:00] - paul: i would say don't sugar-coat business with a higher meaning than making money. private businesses are purely about making money. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:28:00] - jdb: Except this is a case where logic and common sense are on the side of privatization and against government involvement -paul

[2001-06-18 15:27:00] - paul: i don't want government involvement. i just think it's sometimes necessary. i don't like war, but sometimes it's necessary. likes vs. necessities. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:26:00] - jdb: Also, I would like to know how you associate USPS privatization with putting money over other interests -paul

[2001-06-18 15:25:00] - jdb: I still refuse to accept that. From what I know about you, you favor government involvement much more the the "other guy" (I assume you mean the average guy here?) -paul

[2001-06-18 15:22:00] - jdb: That just wouldn't happen... I mean, you could make the same argument about grocery stores... but there are grocery stores in range for everybody -paul

[2001-06-18 15:22:00] - i just don't put that hate above logic and common sense. :-P -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:22:00] - paul: yes i do, yes i do, yes i do. but i value some things more than money. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:21:00] - jdb: Wait wait wait.... "i hate gov't involvement as much as the other guy"!!?? I don't think you mean that at all.... -paul

[2001-06-18 15:21:00] - paul: but the difference is the small towns have a post office. what if only major metropolitan areas had post offices? -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:20:00] - paul: you are correct there are some areas where people don't have mailboxes. - mig

[2001-06-18 15:19:00] - jdb: Actually isn't that something that the USPS does now? I thought there were some towns were people had to come to the post office to pick up their mail.... -paul

[2001-06-18 15:18:00] - paul: ...that's just a move from government (people... sorta) rule to corporate rule. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:18:00] - paul: about phone service... i don't know. believe-you-me, i hate gov't involvement as much as the other guy, but i know how privatization doesn't change things that much. like i've said before, ... -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:17:00] - paul: what happens when the postal service starts thinking like an insurance company? instead of turning away sick people, they might turn away people that live in remote areas, etc. money should not be the bottom line. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:16:00] - everyone: We really need more radical economic conservatives posting on this board... where is logan? :-) -paul

[2001-06-18 15:15:00] - jdb: Interesting, do you think we need a government monopoly for phone service? -paul

[2001-06-18 15:15:00] - paul: depends on your definition of definition. - conscience

[2001-06-18 15:14:00] - dave: I don't really hate the postal service, I just really believe it could be so much better if we got the government out of it -paul

[2001-06-18 15:14:00] - http://www.usps.gov/history/pfact98.htm -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:14:00] - ok, time for me to read up on ASP.  laters. - dewey

[2001-06-18 15:13:00] - conscience: Depends on your definition of trivial, silly and serious -paul

[2001-06-18 15:13:00] - paul: rather, i think it is necessary to have some "government monopolies" in a system as complex as ours. -jdb

[2001-06-18 15:12:00] - mig: there's still some important things that get sent snail mail. like bills - vinnie

[2001-06-18 15:12:00] - a: I'm sorry for breaking it :-( -paul

[2001-06-18 15:12:00] - NOT ALL UNSIGNED POSTS ARE BY THE SAME PERSON

[2001-06-18 15:12:00] - dave: I'll bet a private company could do it better though -paul

[2001-06-18 15:12:00] - paul: do you really hate the postal service that much? it seems to work fairly well...and for only 33 cents. -dave

[2001-06-18 15:11:00] - http://www.cato.org//pubs/handbook/hb105-34.html This is a good piece on the failings of the USPS also -paul

[2001-06-18 15:11:00] - paul: friv-o-lous adj. 1. Unworthy of serious attention; trivial.  2. Inappropriately silly.  - conscience

prev <-> next