prev <-> next
[2004-06-07 08:34:37] - Paul: well I got back in time, but then I kinda collapsed for an unintentional 3 hour nap -dave
[2004-06-07 08:05:45] - Dave: Why didn't you get to see it? Driving home? -Paul
[2004-06-07 07:59:21] - pierce: i don't think i can call hundreds of millions a dollars a month in subsidies that will also hurt the iraqi people in the long run anything but preposterous. - mig
[2004-06-07 07:22:01] - props to the Pistons for Game 1, sucks that I didn't get to see it. -dave
[2004-06-07 00:43:27] - Not that I'm supporting it, but saying "the get gas for five cents a gallon! their cab rides are only seventeen cents" is a bit spurious. - pierce
[2004-06-07 00:42:32] - I dunno... adjusted for average income, that's more like the equivalent of $1.50 a gallon for gas. Still cheaper than here, but it doesn't seem as much of a preposterous subsidy. It seems like there could be a lot more variables involved. - pierce
[2004-06-06 22:05:35] - http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040606/ap_on_bi_ge/iraq_cheap_gas_4 "compassionate conservatism" in action! - mig
[2004-06-06 21:55:48] - a: I'll probably be voting. -Paul
[2004-06-06 19:38:21] - http://us.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/04/music.creedbreakup.ap/ now all I need is scott stapp to break up - vinnie
[2004-06-06 13:47:45] - wtf? that wasn't me (unless it's something I said when I still signed the board with "boing", in which case why did someone quote it? - pierce
[2004-06-06 05:16:02] - hey, "fuck macs," who are you - boing
[2004-06-06 01:44:50] - I have no idea what any of the comments between this and "who is voting" mean, but I'm voting. - pierce
[2004-06-06 01:29:41] - you grab a hold of my nut and i grab hold of your hair and we'll see who wins, ready? - a
[2004-06-06 01:29:16] - try to move now! - a
[2004-06-06 01:29:08] - do you think that would worK? - a
[2004-06-06 01:29:03] - so we could put a hammock outside - a
[2004-06-06 01:28:57] - see i wanted to insert hooks in the roof - a
[2004-06-06 01:01:56] - ;(]--< -a
[2004-06-06 01:01:09] - !
[2004-06-06 01:00:58] - wahahaha - wtf is with "rawr"? what a weird command - you have to type them in manually, the links don't seem to work - aaron
[2004-06-06 01:00:29] - rten? Porjno/Ra`G pm suthera h
[2004-06-05 17:14:01] - who is voting in the next presidential election? ~a
[2004-06-04 16:36:59] - Ok, well, I think it's safe for me to go now. See you all at the court. I'll try not to be late. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:32:13] - Vinnie: Mine weren't dumb.
-paul[2004-06-04 16:30:40] - ok, this is getting dumb - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:29:53] - paul: I was dumbfounded by the shoddy arcing of the ball in the most recent b'ball match - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:28:51] - *** Paul waits for boss to leave so I can leave.
[2004-06-04 16:28:11] - Vinnie: Well, aren't we feeling very self-important now?
-Paul[2004-06-04 16:27:53] - Vinnie: I was especially appalled at the lack of ball-in-hoop action in that final eastern conference game. -paul
[2004-06-04 16:27:21] - Travis: Seeya at the court! I'll call you if I need to get in touch. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:26:41] - paul: somehow I think my office is more pertinent
- vinnie[2004-06-04 16:26:23] - and i'm off, see ya guys at the court, when i bring my injured big ben playa self to bear - travis
[2004-06-04 16:26:11] - paul: yeah, but what about the game following #5? bad non-defense - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:25:34] - i doubt anybody will try to call me, but my cell phone is off because the battery ran out, so don't try calling me any time today - travis
[2004-06-04 16:25:31] - Weather report from my office is about the same, although the ground is still wet. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:24:54] - Travis: I can actually understand not guarding the inbounds pass to guard Kobe. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:24:42] - weather report from my office: no rain, still overcast, but ground looks pretty dry. w00t - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:24:24] - Vinnie: Did you see game 6? Geez, that was some terrible offense.
-Paul[2004-06-04 16:24:21] - the infamous choice of kicking off to start overtime that the lions did a couple seasons ago, too - travis
[2004-06-04 16:23:57] - travis: oh yeah, that was inexcusable -dave
[2004-06-04 16:23:46] - it's like not guarding the inbounds pass just so you can guard kobe, and other such brilliant defensive moves
- travis[2004-06-04 16:22:53] - yeah, but just because a guy misses some shots doesn't mean you leave him totally open and alone in the paint - travis
[2004-06-04 16:22:10] - yeah, I think we've complained about game 6 enough
- vinnie[2004-06-04 16:21:56] - i think big ben threw it down with extra authority just to lay the smackdown for disrespecting him by not guarding him - travis
[2004-06-04 16:21:32] - travis: yeah, but wallace missed a ton of layups too. Tho a lot of people were missing easy shots that game -dave
[2004-06-04 16:20:45] - throw the ball to the guy no one is guarding because he can't make free throws but can dunk it? brilliant! - travis
[2004-06-04 16:20:24] - (that laugh was intended) - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:19:36] - travis: hahaha, yeah I saw it. brilliant - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:19:22] - Travis: Stupid unselfish KG.
-Paul[2004-06-04 16:18:51] - Dave: Yeah, he suffered an injury which could arguably be called one of the biggest in his career this year. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:18:43] - deciding between pass and shoot is KGs problem too, cause he's still reluctant to take the ball hard by himself - travis
[2004-06-04 16:18:28] - Travis: No
-Paul[2004-06-04 16:18:05] - Dave: Career 51% shooter I think. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:18:05] - Paul: supposedly Malone is injured too? -dave
[2004-06-04 16:17:57] - speaking of tenative offensive players, did other people see the big ben dunk at the end of the final game? that was beautiful! - travis
[2004-06-04 16:17:41] - Paul: yeah, I've seen him like stand still, totally open, and waffle between shooting and passing for a few seconds -dave
[2004-06-04 16:17:17] - malone's second in scoring because he's old it's like emmitt smith getting the rushing title by sticking around a couple years more than he should've - travis
[2004-06-04 16:16:35] - Dave: I agree, and I think he also had some bad outings early in the playoffs and he's a little nervous. It's just sad to see him pass up so many open jumpers sometimes. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:16:25] - yup, on sportstalk this morning they said this series will probably come down to the power forward, malone vs rasheed - travis
[2004-06-04 16:15:51] - Paul: and I could definitely seem him as a huge scorer if he was confident with his shots. What's his shooting %? I would guess pretty decent -dave
[2004-06-04 16:15:12] - Paul: like I don't think it's a problem with him shooting, it's a problem with him not knowing whether he's supposed to dish it to someone else or shoot -dave
[2004-06-04 16:14:45] - Paul: I just don't think he's comfortable with his place in the offense. -dave
[2004-06-04 16:14:19] - yeah, I think left mostly alone he'll have no problem. heck, he was hitting many shots over KG - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:14:09] - Dave: Sad that he's the second all time leading scorer in the NBA, huh? -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:13:44] - a: If you get lost, I'll have my cell phone on while driving there so you can give me a call. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:13:17] - but he seems to make pretty decent shots when he does shoot -dave
[2004-06-04 16:12:52] - ahhh. Malone is such a tentative offensive person, at least from the playoff games that I've seen -dave
[2004-06-04 16:12:37] - Vinnie: I actually hadn't heard that until now. For some reason I think of Wallace and Gromit. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:12:24] - malone, I think - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:11:47] - and though you all have probably heard it before, how clever is the defense firm of wallace and wallace? I always chuckle when I hear that - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:11:12] - paul. yep. i gots it. ~a
[2004-06-04 16:10:57] - vinnie: and who would that leave open? -dave
[2004-06-04 16:10:54] - Dave: I think the twin Wallaces will do better than expected against Shaq. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:10:39] - dave: they're planning to double team with both wallaces according to that article travis posted - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:10:04] - Dave: Well, they could stop him if they commit a team defense to him, but nobody matches up well with him one-on-one I don't think. Except maybe Tayshaun. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:09:12] - I'm personally curious as to how Ben Wallace will do against Shaq. My first impression would be that he won't be too much trouble for Shaq -dave
[2004-06-04 16:09:07] - a: You sure you got the directions ok? It's easy. North (or west, depending on how you think of it) on Fairfax County Parkway. Take a right (east) on Fair Lakes parkway. First left (at the light). Keep going until the end. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:08:13] - Paul: I personally don't think they will be able to do much to stop him, but was just curious that you agreed -dave
[2004-06-04 16:07:57] - dave: stellar defense in every position, but... - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:07:19] - Dave: I'm not so sure. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:07:14] - paul. thanks. ~a
[2004-06-04 16:07:09] - Paul: you really think so? even with their stellar defense? -dave
[2004-06-04 16:07:01] - a: No, the right is going east. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:06:55] - aaron: I mispoke is all! mispoke! - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:06:33] - Paul: don't worry, I'm pretty sure I'll be the last person ^_^ -dave
[2004-06-04 16:06:27] - Travis: Yeah, Kobe is going to run wild on the Pistons. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:06:21] - a: I think it's east, actually - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:06:05] - Don't talk to this guy! He's a phony! - aaron
[2004-06-04 16:05:54] - vinnie: You weren't laughing? You're just a big phony! - aaron
[2004-06-04 16:05:52] - (that's the first right) ~a
[2004-06-04 16:05:52] - I guess I better hurry and start making money so I'm not the last person to move out. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:05:36] - paul: by "right" do you mean west? ~a
[2004-06-04 16:05:28] - the big deal they made about the twolves centers guarding Shaq didn't turn up either. It was mostly whether Shaq was having a good shooting day or not it seemed -dave
[2004-06-04 16:05:28] - articles still talk about how battle tested kobe is after facing bowen and hassle, regarding how tough a job hamilton/prince will have - travis
[2004-06-04 16:04:56] - Dave: It's a paradox. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:04:22] - I'm befuddled as to why I stuck that "lol" in there. I wasn't laughing at anything - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:03:40] - paul: hehe, I don't remember who the exact guy was. And I'll agree it's hard to guard him. But it's only the hard to guard people that it's important to guard well. Like no one really talks about guarding Bruce Bowen well, etc -dave
[2004-06-04 16:03:38] - same with bowen, this year - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:03:20] - Travis: Bowen played him well last year, but I remember that he failed miserably this year and that Hassell didn't do much better. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:02:45] - Dave: You're probably right, it's not very skewed. -Paul
[2004-06-04 16:02:37] - dave: lol, they started off saying trenton hassell would be "hassling" kobe during the series (nudge, get it?), but he didn't do nearly as well as they hoped and they didn't play him that much - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:02:19] - it was probably bruce bowen, since he was supposedly the kobe killer last year - travis
[2004-06-04 16:02:10] - Travis: Well, yeah, that was my point.
-Paul[2004-06-04 16:01:52] - Vinnie: Cool, right next to Lisa I see.
-Paul[2004-06-04 16:01:34] - paul: about announcers saying how nobody can guard kobe instead talking about defense: have you seen the shots kobe makes? it can be nigh impossible to guard the guy - travis
[2004-06-04 16:01:25] - Dave: I would be interested in knowing who that defender was.
-Paul[2004-06-04 16:01:17] - paul: yes. end of june - vinnie
[2004-06-04 16:00:53] - Paul: yeah, I'm not really trying to say that offense decides things, I just don't think it's necessarily so skewed towards defense as you seem to be stating -dave
[2004-06-04 16:00:13] - a: Take a right on the Fair Lakes Parkway off of the Fairfax County Parkway. Then take the first left (at the light) all the way to the court (you will see it on your right as it dead ends). -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:59:21] - Vinnie: You and Pierce are moving into a place together?
-Paul[2004-06-04 15:59:06] - vinnie: hmmm, nm, that's not necessarily true -dave
[2004-06-04 15:58:53] - Dave: I don't know why it's that way, but I'm pretty sure it's at least true in football. The team that wins the Superbowl is often the team with the best combination of stifling defense and adequate offense. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:58:43] - vinnie: or put another way, which requires more skill -dave
[2004-06-04 15:58:34] - paul: you almost gave him directions to the place pierce and I will be moving to
- vinnie[2004-06-04 15:57:52] - dave: what really defines whether a sport is offensive or defensive to me is where the bigger variation in skill is - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:57:45] - paul: so what are the new directions? ~a
[2004-06-04 15:57:25] - Paul: Really? I remember a commentator saying that a person did a good job of guarding Kobe over the course of a game -dave
[2004-06-04 15:57:04] - Vinnie: Whoops! You're right. It's off the parkway, not monument! -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:56:51] - so you have to guess what they're going to do and then prevent it -dave
[2004-06-04 15:56:16] - Paul: what's interesting I think, is that in general I've always just thought offense was better than defense. Not that this necessarily is entirely applicable to sports, but it's much easier to try to be pro-active towards some goal, than defensive. Because being defensive requires you to react to something someone else does -dave
[2004-06-04 15:56:13] - paul: uh, your directions are wrong... - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:55:46] - Aaron: Otherwise I probably would get angry.
-Paul[2004-06-04 15:55:22] - Aaron: I can't get angry about that here since as far as I know, we don't have stairs to use except in cases of emergencies. -paul
[2004-06-04 15:54:52] - a: Still at 6, we're meeting at the court at 6 now instead of Travis' though. -paul
[2004-06-04 15:54:31] - a: Fairfax County Parkway North (or west). Pass Fair Lakes Parkway, take the next right onto Monument. Then take the first left all the way to the court. -paul
[2004-06-04 15:54:15] - paul: Same. I also feel silently angry every time someone gets on the elevator and hits the button to go down 1 floor, or go up 1 floor. Just take the stairs, lazy! - aaron
[2004-06-04 15:53:43] - Dave: The only thing I've heard about people guarding Kobe is how nobody can guard him.
-Paul[2004-06-04 15:53:37] - Paul: and quite a few stats like % blocked shots for the East games -dave
[2004-06-04 15:53:25] - how do i find out how to get to the bb court? and it's still at 6, right? ~a
[2004-06-04 15:53:03] - Dave: That's true, you're probably right. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:52:43] - Paul: and I would agree with vinnie, over the course of the playoffs I have heard of a lot of credit given to defense. Most notably, defense against big players, like Malone guarding KG, various centers guarding Shaq, people guarding Kobe, etc. -dave
[2004-06-04 15:51:56] - Anybody ever feel guilty when they get on an elevator that somebody else is already on and push the button for a floor in between hte current floor and their intended floor? I always feel bad about basically making their trip take longer. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:50:37] - Paul: I don't think you can really make the analogy about high/low scoring games in other sports. The only reason 14 points in a soccer game would be amazing is because the score is usually 2. Just like if the score in basketball was 150, it'd be amazing. So that doesn't really say anything about sports liking defense better than offense. -dave
[2004-06-04 15:50:37] - it's a nationwide thing, so it may have started a while ago in other states - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:50:09] - vinnie: Was the whole "click it or ticket" campaign even around a year ago? I only remember hearing about it recently - aaron
[2004-06-04 15:45:21] - I meant whether he says it positively or negatively. I looked at the lyrics myself, pretty neutral - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:38:46] - vinnie: big up? big down? I don't get it! It's just something he says around 0:32 - aaron
[2004-06-04 15:34:28] - aaron: nope. does he big up it or big down it? - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:33:59] - vinnie: Did you hear Big Boi says "Click it or Ticket" in a part of his rap at the beginning of The Way You Move? I just noticed that for the first time today.... - aaron
[2004-06-04 15:31:18] - travis: I have no clue at all. I don't even know what the hardest sport to coach is, but that might be a good start - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:27:20] - yes, barkley does call it boring. but he sucks - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:27:07] - Vinnie: That's probably it, because the people on the radio that I listen to are always harping on the low scores. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:26:54] - "a defender staying on a man" is what I meant, clearly - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:26:31] - Travis: Any specific sport? Pro or college? -paul
[2004-06-04 15:26:26] - paul: yeah, it must be the people we watch/listen to. especially the espn commentators I find are very quick to point out good D - not even a block or steal, but a good switch-up or staying on a defender. I daresay they've highlighted it more than good shooting in the pistons/pacers series - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:24:47] - i only hear barkley call it "boring" but lots of people call defense "ugly" even the guys that played it call the game that - travis
[2004-06-04 15:24:09] - Travis: Maybe it's the articles I read then, or the talk radio I listen to. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:24:04] - changing the topic off the eternal defense/offense debate, who's the best coach ever? and what determines how good a coach is? - travis
[2004-06-04 15:23:41] - Vinnie: That hasn't been my own experience, but even when they do credit good D, they always seem to have to qualify it with the terms "ugly" and "boring". -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:23:27] - yeah, i think you just listen to stephen a. smith too much (which is hard since you don't get espn) - travis
[2004-06-04 15:19:49] - paul: for all your complaints, I haven't noticed a lot of that this year. especially in the playoffs, they've been creditting good D - vinnie
[2004-06-04 15:11:29] - Travis: Or it could just be that a hitter was hitting particularly well that day. I guess what my point is that basketball announcers ALWAYS seem to take the side of crappy shooting when in reality it's probably something like 50/50 crappy shooting and good defense. At least in baseball they will occasionally give credit to batters. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:05:49] - paul: that was my point, it could largely be the pitcher's fault and you wanna call it good offense - travis
[2004-06-04 15:04:44] - Vinnie: I guess you're right. -paul
[2004-06-04 15:03:05] - Travis: Well, I guess my point is that it's better to have a good defense than a good offense. The term 'good' is open to interpretation, clearly, but I think I would rather have a team with the defense abilities of the Spurs or Pistons than a team with the offensive abilities of the Kings or Mavericks. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:01:26] - Travis: Walks are often the fault of the pitcher too though. -Paul
[2004-06-04 15:01:13] - well, that kinda makes sense to me. the pitcher is by far the most important position in the game, so I can see why people would naturally apply fault to them. I'd at least guess more often bad pitching screws up a game than good offense, simply because offense requires coordination of many people - vinnie
[2004-06-04 14:59:29] - unless the baseball game was so high scoring because of lots of walks and such, which you have to read past the headline to find out - travis
[2004-06-04 14:58:33] - paul: i know you say defense is inherently better than offensive, but the cases where a great offense overruns a defense happen as much as a good defense smothering an offense - travis
[2004-06-04 14:55:52] - Vinnie: Well, I'm just thinking back to headlines for baseball games I've seen, and usually when the scores are high, the headlines have to do with how the pitchers sucked instead of how the batters hit well. At least, as far as I can remember. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:55:23] - but soccer definitely and hockey possibly are more defensive than offensive games. basketball I'm not sure - vinnie
[2004-06-04 14:54:14] - I don't think soccer or hockey prefer lower scores as much as it tend towards lower scores. a 5-5 soccer game can be great. something would really be wrong if there was a 15-14 though - vinnie
[2004-06-04 14:50:56] - Travis: Well, I was just trying to think of other sports where higher scores are enjoyed more and I thought Hockey and Soccer and Baseball actually usually preferred lower scores. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:50:22] - Travis: I'm a bit confused. You're saying what if offense inherently was better than defense? Because I was saying the opposite. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:49:19] - Travis: I don't totally disagree with his analysis. If the Lakers play to their potential then I don't see Detroit being able to hold them below 90 points. It's not a knock against Detroit's defense, just an acknowledgement that the Lakers have four guys who can (and probably have) average 20+ points a season. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:48:48] - but more seriously, it would depend on how that happened. if the number of shots stayed the same, then the defenses obviously did something wrong. if the shot percentage stayed the same, then the offense did more stuff right (and is a hell of a lot better conditioned than a standard team) - travis
[2004-06-04 14:46:58] - probably depends how the score got that way. were there goalies playing?
- travis[2004-06-04 14:45:45] - in relation to your "defense always beats offense" what if the offense is just that damn good that the best defense will only slow it down to the average? if the defensive team doesn't have an average offense, they lose - travis
[2004-06-04 14:44:47] - http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1815480 point number 4 - travis
[2004-06-04 14:44:40] - Travis: I suppose that's true. But wouldn't soccer fans go nuts if a game ended lik 15-14? -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:42:43] - yeah, but the mainstream focus of baseball is on stuff like the number homeruns - travis
[2004-06-04 14:41:58] - i'm pretty sure the nhl version of hockey is more defensive oriented than the olympic version because there was talk of changing nhl to match olympic regulations - travis
[2004-06-04 14:41:22] - Like, when there is a high scoring baseball game, people are always blaming the pitcher instead of giving credit to the fact that maybe the batters were just hitting well that night. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:40:32] - Travis: I've heard people complain about the Spurs defense at times. I was actually going to point out the interesting phenomenon where (I think) high scoring baseball games are frowned upon. Can Miguel back me up here? -paul
[2004-06-04 14:38:27] - and if you like defensive games, and equate fewer points with better defense, then you should love baseball and soccer
- travis[2004-06-04 14:37:38] - Paul: "There are exceptions in football, there don't appear to be any in basketball" i never hear anybody complain about the lakers or spurs defense, which is probably helped by the fact they play good defense in an offensive minded conference - travis
[2004-06-04 14:35:26] - Dammit! I hate myself now. I went to check something for a computer game I'm playing and the site even warned my about plot spoilers but I read anyway and now I know what's going to happen and it totally ruins it for me!
-Paul[2004-06-04 14:30:43] - Vinnie: Well, it's looked like it was on the verge of raining all day long here and the only way I can tell if it's raining or not is to look at the ground and see if I can see splashes. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:29:32] - I would give you a weather update but it's really been going on and off today - vinnie
[2004-06-04 14:29:01] - Dun dun dunnnnnnn... -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:26:07] - looks like it stopped raining ... for now. - mig
[2004-06-04 14:24:53] - Well, it was raining here but it looks like it passed through. Hopefully that means the storm will have passed through Chantilly by the time we're ready to play. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:22:06] - mig: Well, I don't know if the finals are going to provide much in the way of answers. Even I think that the Lakers are going to score lots of points on Detroit just because they really should, what with their big four each able to carry an NBA team in scoring. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:19:13] - well a lot of people say that the reason the pistons, pacers, and nets get touted for good defense is because most of the offenses in the east are terrible. And to an extent, i think that's correct. - mig
[2004-06-04 14:16:36] - Vinnie: Well, I didn't see it, so I guess I can't say, but when I heard announcers badmouthing the low score and blaming it on the offense, I just assumed it was another case of good defense being miscredited. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:12:38] - but bad offense does annoy me too. like that last pistons game, ugh. so bad - vinnie
[2004-06-04 14:11:56] - It happens to a lesser extent in football. The high scoring games are considered exciting and the low scoring games are supposed to be boring. And the blame always seems to be placed on "bad offense" rather than credit going to good defense. There are exceptions in football, there don't appear to be any in basketball. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:11:50] - yeah, I've seen some fun defensive games this season - vinnie
[2004-06-04 14:08:36] - I guess what annoys me is the seeming consensus that low scoring games are 'ugly' and 'boring'. Why is it so wrong to enjoy defensive battles in basketball? -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:05:51] - paul: yeah, somehow I doubt that too, but it's something you have to look at old tapes to see - vinnie
[2004-06-04 14:04:45] - And I also don't think that games need to be 120-130 to be exciting, or whatever, like it seems like everybody thinks. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:04:05] - Well, I'm willing to admit that the decrease in points scored over the past decade or so might not be entirely because of defense (offenses being more conservative, less fast break points) but I don't think it's because the offensive skills of players have declined drastically. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:02:42] - Yes. I do complain about them. -Paul
[2004-06-04 14:02:28] - and paul complains that people don't like good defense as a result, while i'm saying bad offense is the problem - travis
[2004-06-04 14:01:51] - i'm not saying they don't play good defense relative to the current teams, but paul always complains about the people that point out how the scores have gone down - travis
[2004-06-04 13:59:05] - travis: I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. that detroit doesn't play good defense? - vinnie
[2004-06-04 13:58:27] - Travis: Well, you could be right. Maybe Detroit doesn't play good defense. It was just coincidence and bad offense which has led to all these misleading stats. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:57:32] - Travis: Ok, then look at FG% defense, in which Detroit was 3rd. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:56:31] - yeah, but who was out with injuries those games? who got in foul trouble? there's more variables than just the defense - travis
[2004-06-04 13:56:08] - Travis: But still, under 60 points a game? That's still like 20 points lower than what Chicago was averaging. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:55:28] - doesn't score much doesn't have to be good defense, since detroit walks the ball down the court every time they just chew up more of the clock, hence fewer shots, hence fewer points without a drop of defense - travis
[2004-06-04 13:55:13] - Travis: Fine then, but Seattle and Denver were 5th and 6th so
-Paul[2004-06-04 13:54:35] - denver and seattle were fairly high, but i was pointing out philly, chicago, and portland mainly - travis
[2004-06-04 13:54:27] - I'm just saying that it seems like weird coincidence that every team that plays against Detroit shoots poorly and doesn't score much. I guess they could just be extraordinarily lucky in that every team they play has a terrible offensive night but I personally think it's more likely that they just might play good defense (IMHO). -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:54:09] - portland was 21st average points per game - travis
[2004-06-04 13:53:54] - actually I thought denver had one of higher ppg in the league this past year - vinnie
[2004-06-04 13:53:16] - Travis: Seattle was. And Portland and Denver were able to put up a decent amount of points as well. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:51:59] - hehe, and they beat philadelphia, chicago, seattle, denver, and portland to get that streak. yup, those are all offensive juggernauts - travis
[2004-06-04 13:48:46] - But I guess I could be wrong and they're just a crappy team that can't make any shots. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:48:25] - Dave: Well, I tend to think that if a team like Detroit can hold however many straight opponents under 60 points in a season and is tied for first in the NBA in fewest points allowed that it might be good defense instead of just always playing against bad offense. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:45:42] - Paul: But it can be a difficult thing to quantify given that defense looks better if it plays against a bad offense and vice versa. -dave
[2004-06-04 13:43:24] - It's the reason why nobody really believed the Mavericks could win it last year even though they had the best record for most of the season and the same reason why Sacramento always comes up short. -paul
[2004-06-04 13:42:07] - Dave: Just that if you look at the recent history of the NBA playoffs (and this might hold true for the entire history and it definitely holds true for football, but I digress) that generally the teams that play good defense outperform the teams that play good offense (unless the good offense team is clearly better all around). -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:39:40] - pierce: your e-mail? I got it - vinnie
[2004-06-04 13:39:22] - Paul: out of curiosity, where are you drawing that conclusion from, defense beats offense with all else equal? -dave
[2004-06-04 13:36:58] - Travis: I don't dispute that, for whatever reason, offense is down league-wide and has been declining for awhile. I just think it's silly how most people seem to equate the number of points a team scores with how good they are since history has shown that all else being equal, defense beats offense almost every time. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:35:14] - vinnie: check your email
[2004-06-04 13:35:00] - i'm saying that i don't know if we're really seeing good defensive games and might just be seeing bad offensive games - travis
[2004-06-04 13:26:14] - http://www.google.com/search?q=%22bite+the+ham+that+feeds+you%22 did you mean, bite the hand that feeds you? - google
[2004-06-04 13:24:57] - Travis: Are you arguing something about defense in the NBA with me? Because I don't know if I disagree with what you're saying. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:24:14] - Dave: Typically teams play other teams in their conference four times and teams out of conference two times. So yeah, eastern teams play eastern teams more than western teams. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:23:03] - and i know you'll argue that the better defense has led to fewer shots, but then there should also be an upswing in the number of fouls, blocks, steals, etc, and i don't think that exists - travis
[2004-06-04 13:22:09] - funny title. lol.
[2004-06-04 13:22:04] - and there's been articles written that state how the number of shot attempts has gone down over the years, so that just means teams aren't playing as much offense, not that defense is suddenly better - travis
[2004-06-04 13:20:48] - paul: yup, cause i'm all about loyalty to one team but love for many players
- travis[2004-06-04 13:19:39] - then logically they have to be more inept than the lakers and pistons since the team that wins must be less inept, then - travis
[2004-06-04 13:19:30] - Paul: and the Lakers etc had injuries a lot of the season. And also playoffs I think is a very different environment than regular season -dave
[2004-06-04 13:19:02] - Paul: well, but don't East teams play more often in the East etc? -dave
[2004-06-04 13:18:37] - The problem is you have no players that fit the definition we're talking about, except possibly KG leaving the Timberwolves. But not even that fits. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:18:02] - Travis: I know, but Starbury makes even less sense. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:17:49] - Travis: Well, it means they beat more teams than any other team in the regular season, which seems like it would be the opposite of ineptness. -paul
[2004-06-04 13:17:44] - Paul: i'd actually be elated if houston left the knicks! you picked a lousy example
- travis[2004-06-04 13:17:07] - Dave: Yeah, I tend to like crappy players personally. -paul
[2004-06-04 13:17:02] - yeah, best record means a whole lot when both the pacers and the twolves aren't in the finals - travis
[2004-06-04 13:16:50] - Travis: So you're saying you wouldn't have a problem at all if Allan Houston left the Knicks next year and joined the Nets or something? -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:16:39] - Paul: hmm, I guess that second part didnt' really make sense since you think the Pistons/Pacers are just as good -dave
[2004-06-04 13:16:08] - Paul: Yeah, probably. I'm also very partial to teams/players that are just flat out good -dave
[2004-06-04 13:13:10] - Dave: Well, I chalk it up to our difference in opinion regarding defense in the NBA, but we can agree to disagree. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:10:14] - Paul: I didn't say they were inept, I said they looked inept to me (shrug). Like I said, I've only seen a few games they've played -dave
[2004-06-04 13:08:25] - mig: I don't know if I agree with that at all. I think the Jazz ownership have been doing their best to win. -paul
[2004-06-04 13:07:36] - Dave: Because clearly the team with the best record in the NBA is inept.
-Paul[2004-06-04 13:07:35] - Paul: it should go both ways though, it was apparent to Malone that the Jazz ownership weren't really going to make an effort to win anytime soon. - mig
[2004-06-04 13:06:49] - Paul: and I don't really identify with any of their players as much as those from the west. Tho this could also be because I dont' watch East games as much -dave
[2004-06-04 13:06:20] - Paul: They come across as a lot more inept to me -dave
[2004-06-04 13:06:10] - Paul: I think I don't like the Pacers / Pistons because I don't enjoy watching their games as much as those from the west. Whether it be because defense isn't as flashy or whatever, but it just isn't as fun IMO -dave
[2004-06-04 13:02:31] - Travis: Very well, you're right. I only have three reasons why I don't want the Lakers to win then.
-Paul[2004-06-04 13:02:30] - Paul: I really don't think it's that you're right or wrong, just that you're placing more emphasis on the loyalty of the player -dave
[2004-06-04 13:01:56] - paul: during his heyday, though, the jazz were a top team, but as he aged the team itself went downhill too - travis
[2004-06-04 13:00:41] - Travis: RIght, but I thought the whole point of this discussion was that Malone should've left the Jazz because he could never get his ring there. -Paul
[2004-06-04 13:00:13] - Travis: He could still lose. -Paul
prev <-> next